Sabine Winters is a philosopher working at the intersection of science and art with an interest in the 'how and why' behind theory and process.
She is the initiator of Future Based, an interdisciplinary philosophy platform exploring themes of expansion of consciousness, scientific imagination, scale, time, and things that are.
Interviewed by: Amanda Reeves
More about Sabine
Future Based: futurebased.org
Scientific Imagination: Scientificimagination.org
Twitter: https://twitter.com/Sllwinters
Transcript
Amanda Reeves: What happens when you bring different disciplines together to imagine positive futures? How can film help us explore big ideas, like time, identity, and space?
I'm Amanda Reeves, and I'm your host for FuturePod today.
Sabine Winters: Working with younger people, working with teenagers, working with people that are in their twenties. I love that because they have such a different perspective on things. You know, we can talk about different disciplines, but there are also differences in generations.
Amanda Reeves: That's today's guest Sabine Winters, a philosopher working at the intersection of science and art. You might know her as the initiator of Future Based, an interdisciplinary philosophy platform bringing people together to explore big topics like expanding consciousness, scientific imagination, time, and things that are.
She's joining me today to tell you about it.
Welcome to FuturePod Sabine.
Sabine Winters: Thank you so much for having me, Amanda. Wonderful.
Amanda Reeves: Let's get started. What's the Sabine Winters story?
Sabine Winters: I'm a philosopher of science. I focus on the role and function of imagination in the sciences. So that's my personal research. I did a Bachelor in Philosophy and a Master in Philosophy of Science, and I founded Future Based in 2018, which is an interdisciplinary philosophy platform. And I work together with a group of freelancers on themes that you mentioned, for example time what is time? How can we capture time? Can we reflect on time? Scale, scientific imagination, and these are very broad themes which help to create a framework in which we do research.
So that's Future Based. And I started studying quite late. I was 27 when I started philosophy. I wanted to do something that really. Made me enthusiastic that really fed my mind. And from the first lecture on it really felt like coming home.
Amanda Reeves: Mm,
Sabine Winters: So I really loved the people there. I really loved the diversity of people, the diversity of discussions that we had like the zooming in on texts and then discussing the details, discussing the semantics.
So I really enjoyed that, and what I remember is that in one of the first lectures, actually, maybe the first lecture that I followed was a professor that clearly said to all of us "You are here because of intrinsic motivation and not because you want to earn any money with philosophy, because let's be clear here, there are not really that much career options. And it really frustrated me. And what I've learned over the years is that frustration can be a really good catalyst, a really good motivator for doing what you want to do.
So it really motivated me to prove otherwise. And on the other hand, you have to let go of frustration at some point because it can become bitterness.
So, it worked out quite well. I'm really happy with the place that I'm at right now. I work with wonderful people. And I now only talk about where I work, but I have also a lovely family. I have a daughter of eight and my partner and we live in the east of the Netherlands near the woods.
So I'm a, I'm a happy person.
Amanda Reeves: What attracted you to philosophy? Why did you end up going in that direction?
Sabine Winters: Yeah, so I did attempt to follow a study when I was 21, from my 17th till 21, but I was still very, very young, figuring out a lot of stuff, trying to take care of my own. And that really went with ups and downs. So doing a study next to that wasn't, yeah, it wasn't for me. I really missed a lot of lectures, I didn't get good grades, so I stopped that after two and a half years of, I can honestly say failure. My self esteem was very, very low at that point, so I decided that academia wasn't for me.
And I started working, and I worked until I was 27 and I worked in the most wonderful places. I always had this like happy go lucky, ended up at places with wonderful people, artists, and also philosophers and scientists, that coincidentally worked also in stores because I worked in clothing stores a lot.
At one point I found stability and then I got bored. I got bored with the life I had and I thought, well, I might be doing something that I really, really enjoy next to my work next to my having my income.
And so I decided I always wanted to learn philosophy, but I chose psychology because of the career options. And then I thought, well, I'm working, I have my income, I'm happy this way, I only want some mental stimulation. And then I started doing philosophy and yeah, that was the best choice I've made.
I still really enjoy it. And what I also really enjoy is learning from other philosophers, or other thinkers. I consider myself as an very enthusiastic, average, philosopher. And sometimes there are these brilliant insights by others and they share it with you and you really feel things click. It's like almost a magical feeling.
I always had this idea. I want to become. As a child, I wanted to become an astronaut or a wizard and this a wizard was then living on an attic with a lot of old dusty books. I have something with old dusty books and I feel that I come the closest to being a wizard as I could possibly be. So, yes,
Amanda Reeves: I love that
Sabine Winters: if that makes sense, but yes.
Yeah.
Not with potions, but just with your thoughts and thinking and discussions. Yes.
Amanda Reeves: yeah, that's beautiful.
Sabine Winters: So as I told you, I started studying when I was 27, and I got my daughter when I was 30.
And she was like the most lovely surprise of my life. But it was really tough because I really wanted to prove something as well, you know? At that point I started doing philosophy and then I was two years in it and I thought, I really want to finish this. I want to show that I can do this. So there's some external pressure, I'm very honest in that, there's some external pressure as well.
And at that time I had to decide I needed to stop. I went to lectures with a very big belly. And I couldn't really sit still on these uneasy chairs. It was really uncomfortable. And then I stopped for almost three and a half years studying, and I was so determined to pick it up again. I started studying, working, with a family, a young baby, which was really tough.
I wouldn't recommend it to my own daughter. But yeah, you know, things happen. And at the same time, you know, it's doable. I found it really hard to make the decision I need to stop now because I have too much stress. It isn't good for me. It isn't good for the baby. It isn't good for my partner for our relationship.
So let's stop. And at that moment, I couldn't really let go of my peers, so we had an app group and we kept in contact and then I decided well, I'm at home now, why not start writing about philosophy and art? And that's actually how my very first blog began. And then from there, I enrolled into the organization of an art fair. And that was really my first assignment.
So this pause, what really I thought was the end maybe of, or maybe a way letting go of this dream of doing philosophy in university became like the starting point of my entrepreneurship. Then after three and a half years Lola, my daughter, she went to school and to preschool and I found time again to start studying which was, still, I find it very tough. I know moms that do it, like, easy, but I think it's very tough. And I think parent is wonderful, but it's also very heavy very, very intense. So, yeah, so that's how it went.
Amanda Reeves: Studying philosophy, you've got ideas about who we are and our relationship with the world. Did becoming a parent have a significant impact on that for you?
Sabine Winters: I think so. Yes. I haven't reflect on how so I haven't reflect on like the pre moms are being, thinking about staff and the after mom or being the mom But it has to almost, you know. Lola is really my, the central point. I move around her, you know?
As I said, I'm a very enthusiastic, all of the place person and she really keeps me grounded. Also in my thinking I think that philosophy teach me to think more structured, Lola as well. Do you think differently about certain issues? Yes, definitely. Like climate change. Now don't even call it change, the crisis that we are in. Yeah, sometimes I just wonder, oh my God. What kind of world have I brought her into? And sometimes on a more positive note, , you know, like the wonderful things you can learn or the wonderful things that philosophies or other scientists have written on, I want to share it with her. You know, philosophy can be really difficult, but children can ask you the most difficult questions framed in the most simple sentences. It's like, whoa, you know, like, mom, why are we here? Or mom, why is this a yellow flower?
Like, it sounds really simple, but you can really philosophize with children a lot. It's really like, I don't know. I don't know. Like I don't have the answer to that. I have no idea. And it's really like almost a liberation to philosophize with children. So Lola really helps me.
It's a cliche, you know, but the cliches are there because they are cliches. They really help you to get into the now.
Yes. Yes. And sometimes I really need that because I'm in my head a lot. yes.
Amanda Reeves: Can you tell me a bit about some of the methods that you use in your practice?
Sabine Winters: Ah, yes. I don't know if this is a method. I don't think so, but enthusiasm is something that I really thrive on, and mutual enthusiasm is something that I always search for in projects. This doesn't mean that I always work with extrovert people, but what I search for in collaborations, I always ask my coffee partners because it always start with drinking a coffee together.
What do you really would like to work on? What is something that you feel you can't really find in your profession, or maybe in your research now that you really would like to work on? And then always something comes out. Sometimes it's a book. Sometimes it's a really off topic, something completely different than their research or profession that they want to explore.
And I love facilitating. So, what I'm then doing is for Future Based, we always work in series and I try to compose a series. So I try to compose a series of a podcast, a gathering, and maybe a publication or three podcast series. You try to find together a form. And as you mentioned we have these themes going on for a few years, which is a framework. They are very philosophical, you know, time. Gosh, you can frame everything under time, but it's something that really helps in communicating, in showing what Future Based is, but also composing a program. So for example I think that it's important to have a certain freedom and at the same time have a theme to help you focus on the topics from an interdisciplinary perspective. So that's really important. I always try to have a perspective on the topic from different disciplines. And this really sounds abstract, so let me give you an example. We have a time capsule, which is obviously under time
Amanda Reeves: Mm-hmm
Sabine Winters: and Amanda, you are part of this wonderful time capsule.
That's wonderful. We are gathering all sorts of positive future scenarios. And we will print that in a zine. Lilian de Jong is the curator of the zine and Dana Dijkgraaf will be designing the zine, and we have a gathering somewhere in 2023 and a gathering in 20 32, in about 10 years.
And what we really wanted to do is because there are so many dystopian futures in so many stories that have a dystopian setting and I completely get it. I mean, there's so much going on. And I think that these narratives are really a way for us to control or to grasp or to reflect upon what's happening in an idealized setting, you know, in a more simplistic setting such as a Hollywood movie The Day After Tomorrow, for example, just popping up or Don't Look Up.
But I also think that, in a way, and this is something that I've been thinking about a lot can, it can be almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I think that telling positive stories is super important to make us see the possible alternatives on these dystopian futures. And that's why we really wanted to make, to publish this zine.
Different disciplines. So there are scientists, there are designers, artists, theater makers, writers, all sorts of different disciplines that bring in these positive futures. And then we really want to discuss about these positive futures and see when, because I still do think that when we go into discussion, there will be like this dystopian narrative sneaking in. So when we turn into the dystopian setting and why we do that. You know, why, why we always tend to draw the attention to the dystopian setting.
Amanda Reeves: Why do you think we do?
Sabine Winters: Why? I don't know. I don't know. I had a discussion yesterday with someone about this and he said, well, maybe we are just drawn to it because of our evolutionary settings, we are hardwired as a warning system.
Amanda Reeves: Mm-hmm
Sabine Winters: Yeah, that could be possible. I don't really know. I think it has to do with some form of sensation, sure. But I also really think, I really think that it also has to do with some form of affirmation, of what we are seeing outside, what is happening on the news. It's almost like a mirror, like, see, this is how it goes, this is what's happening. Yeah, almost like, yeah, like a looking glass, it's like a looking glass. It really magnifies certain aspects what's happening in the world.
Amanda Reeves: Mm.
Sabine Winters: Maybe even some form of preparation almost, you know, like, ah, I know what's happening then, I know what's happening now.
Yeah. And you see really there are things happening that Hollywood already foretells. I know one, by the way, Don't Look Up. Yesterday there was like this news. Have you seen it on Twitter?
Amanda Reeves: I did watch it on Twitter.
Sabine Winters: Was it BBC, NBC, this news reporter. And she was like, oh, it's just a sunny day. Why do we always have to be like in panic and literally, I don't know in Australia, but like England was on fire. Spain and France are on fire.
Greece. And then you have this clip of Don't Look Up where she goes, like, " I'm telling you that the world is ending" and the new reporter is like, "No, let's keep it light, let's keep it happy. And it's like one on one, it's really disturbing and on a more positive note, yes, let's do that because I'm like, I'm going into dystopian futures myself.
On a positive note, there's also Star Trek, you know, they have all these technological inventions, for example this microwave, that prints you your cake when you press a button, and now we have these 3d printers, also the swipe screens, for example, and we have now swipe screens all over the place.
So I'm really interested. And this is something that I research also with my podcast Scientific Imagination in where fiction meets science. And how fiction or imagination is a catalyst, that's the word again, for innovation and discovery. I really find that fascinating.
Amanda Reeves: Sabine I want to ask you about this idea of Scientific Imagination. Can you tell us a bit more about that for our listeners who aren't familiar with it?
Sabine Winters: Yes, of course. So Scientific Imagination is my podcast about the role and function of imagination in the sciences. I interview artists who are working on the intersection of science and art, designers and scientists on how would they define imagination? And we will never come to a definition.
That's rather impossible, but I always ask because I'm a philosopher. So I want to know what their definition of imagination is.
And then we go into their profession. What sparks their imagination? How they think that imagination is functioning in their profession. For example, I'm going to interview Freya Blekman, and she's a physicist, experimental physicist at CERN. I interviewed Angelo Vermeulen, who is the founder of Biomodd which is, a biology and art collective. Also very interesting person by the way. and I interviewed Jan van Ijken, he is a filmmaker, he made Plankton, which is really going viral at the moment, beautiful, beautiful images of plankton.
And Ruvimbo Samanga, who is a space lawyer,
Amanda Reeves: A space lawyer?
Sabine Winters: Yes. Yes. Personally I'm really interested, not necessarily in space industry. I find the structures of space industry really interesting. But I'm also really interested in astronomy, and In the relationship between space astronomy and human beings.
I have a huge telescope here at home, and I'm trying to teach myself a little bit more about astrophotography, which is hard. Like I can get only the moon. I have like 5,000 pictures of the moon and and one of Saturn and one of Jupiter, but that's it. I was always fascinated by astronomy, and I now have the chance through philosophy to really come in contact with these people.
And even for a more specific focus, the imagination. And I couldn't be happier, honestly, because , I, I wanted to do astronomy, but. That was really out of reach for me because of my math insights really didn't like align with my teachers math insights. and now I have this chance through philosophy.
Talk about quantum mechanics, about physics, about astronomical discoveries. And it's really wonderful. Yeah. So that's my Scientific Imagination. And in autumn, we have I've organized for film events with Interstellar, the Martian ET, we're going to show ET as well, and Inner Telescope, which is a documentary. We are going to show these movies.
And afterwards we have talks with scientists about where the fiction meets the science
Amanda Reeves: fantastic.
Sabine Winters: Yes. I'm really looking forward. Yes.
Amanda Reeves: Can you tell us a bit more about this theme, things that are.
Sabine Winters: Oh gosh.
Amanda Reeves: This feels like such a big, all inclusive, you know, the entire history of human knowledge theme. I love it.
Sabine Winters: This is the book it's called Things That Are, and it's by Amy Leach, and it's has a subtitle Encounters With Plants, Stars, and Animals. And it's a fantastic poetic journey in which he describes all sorts of encounters.
One chapter, one of my favorites is called Please Do Not Yell At The Sea Cucumber, which really sounds absurd. And
I love that. Yes. I love that. Radical Bears in the Forest, Delicious is also another chapter. What she does is that she really combines scientific insights with personal reflections about how she sees the world.
And I really love that. I really loved the sentence, Things That Are, and it refers of course, in philosophy to ontology. This is a topic that I still really want to explore more. It is not something that I already have a project on. So maybe this is an open call. If anyone wants to explore the topic of things that are or having idea of things that are, please reach out to me, let's see what happens.
We have one podcast series that's called Beyond Human Relations, which is actually in the framework of Things That Are, I have to say, and Beyond Human Relations is a podcast that it's hosted by Chetana Pai. She's one of the freelancers working for Future Based. And she is wonderful, and she has done interviews with designers who are designing an internet for dogs, thinking about internet for dogs, for
Amanda Reeves: Ah Uh, huh?
Sabine Winters: Exactly.
Amanda Reeves: What does, what does an internet for dogs look like?
Sabine Winters: No, that was the question that this designer asked.
Cause like dogs really are not interested in looking, but rather more in using their nose and sniffing.
Amanda Reeves: yeah.
Sabine Winters: and what would they want to do on the internet? Do they want to meet other dogs or to do you know, what do, what does an internet mean for a dog? So this was one of the topics.
But she interviewed also about AI and technology and not what AI is to humans, but what humans are to AI. So really from different perspectives, it's really beyond the human relationships to the world, but from the animal perspective, and from the technology perspective, and this is the wonderful thing, right?
If you dive into a topic and this is also that I want to bring in collaborations and people express to me their wishes for our research topics or things that they want to explore. I can facilitate that. And the mutual benefit is that if we go into this topic of choice, a new bubble opens up. So there's this new, fantastic bubble of people that are researching the internet for dogs.
It's wonderful. And every time we do this with my collaboration partners, a new world opens up. The same goes, for example, a project called witchcraft meets science with Lieke Wouters
Amanda Reeves: mm-hmm
Sabine Winters: We dove into how witchcraft served as the base for modern sciences.
And there are so many artists working on this topic. And so many scientists have published about this topic. It's insane, there's so much out there. Another one is psychedelic experiences, which is actually kind of a hot topic at the moment in healthcare. He's called Aidan Lyon, he's a philosopher.
And we worked on how we can induce psychedelic experiences without the drugs, but through meditation. And we want to do one through movement that will be in spring most probably. And this is also again, Things That Are, sounds like a really big framework, a really poetic framework, but it really helps opening up your mind, picking a topic of your choice, where your enthusiasm flows and then diving into it and always in a series.
Always in a series, because I think if you only do one, if you only have one perspective on a topic, then it's not, it's not really satisfying.
Amanda Reeves: And you're getting different voices in, giving different perspectives and different explorations in that topic.
Sabine Winters: Exactly. Yes. And of course it's never finished, but if you say we work on a series of three, three is also doable. You know? Like we say, we work six months on this and then it's finished.
So you have the beginning and an end, series of three. It's really a project, which really works well. And because often Future Based is voluntary, people putting their time and efforts in, sometimes it means that a project will take a little bit longer because family life is there, life is happening in general, or maybe, you know, something called COVID gets in the way. And then we postpone it a little bit and it's all fine, but I really work with beginnings and ends. So sometimes it means that we have to pull the plug out because it's taking too long and then the energy flows out and that's something that I really am careful with.
Amanda Reeves: So when you look around at what's happening at the moment, at this point in time, this exciting moment in history to be alive, what emerging futures are capturing your attention?
Sabine Winters: Ah yes. Difficult question. Challenging question, I have to say. I think I can't really give a general answer because it depends on the bubbles while you're in, right? just discussed it. But what I really hope is, and you slowly see these changes coming, that we look more to the ecosystem, not to ad hoc solutions, but more to a whole. Like how everything is connected. And what I find really important is that I hope in the future, we will be more generously in admitting that we don't know.
Amanda Reeves: Yes.
Sabine Winters: I hope that we just can say, okay, let's be careful here because I don't know. I'm not saying that we don't know, for example, if a vaccine works or not, I'm really clear about that. But what I do mean is that if we are control freaks and we think we can control nature.
That's what I mean. We think that we know how things work, how they are interconnected.
Amanda Reeves: mm-hmm
Sabine Winters: And we really don't. And, also when asked a simple question, or when your daughter asks a question that you are fine in saying, "I don't know, let's go and research it together." You know, being okay with not knowing is something that I hope will return a little bit more. I hope that yeah, I have to be a little bit careful here because I have a lot of hopes that that are also like maybe we should be careful with generalizing in general. There is a lot happening in technology. As I said I spoke with Jeroen van der Most is a friend of mine, and he's working on quantum mechanics and art. This is also a really emerging fields. Psychedelics is something that we really see now as a way of opening up our minds. About learning, maybe even a guide to possibilities of new knowledge which is something really new or maybe not really new because it was done before, but it returns now.
Amanda Reeves: New in this culture and this time
Sabine Winters: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Speaking about cultures, I hope that we intertwine more, that we emerge more in each other's cultures, that soft spokenness.
Amanda Reeves: mm.
Sabine Winters: I think being soft spoken there is so much hate on Twitter, for example. Oh my gosh. I really try to reframe myself from going into the discussion.
I almost never do. And I try to keep in my mind that there is another person on the other side of the Twitter screen. And we often forget that. I hope I really, I don't think that social media is the future. I think there will be other ways. I hope there will be other ways. And having said that I make use of social media myself a lot.
Because it also has the positive side of getting in contact with each other. Hence, we are
Amanda Reeves: Mm.
Sabine Winters: now.
So it has its wonderful sides, but it's also very, very much polarizing and I hope that that will change as well. So emerging futures. I have, I'm not a futurist, so I don't really have clear perspectives on that.
But I have hopes and I hear a lot. I talk a lot with futurists. I see, there is like this awareness going on, and this wish for change,
and a wish for discussing things together. For example, how the internet looks how the internet should look and building things with Lego.
Uh, nice workshops. People are gathering together, especially the generation, maybe even two generations after me, who are really working together for a better future. I have hopes for them, because of them. Yeah. They're like 20, early twenties, and I see that they are really taking it seriously and really working together to make improvements and innovations, whatever innovations may mean. But in this perspective, it means like bettering the world.
Amanda Reeves: I keep thinking about the break that you had between study and while you were pregnant, and there was that period where it felt like that was the end of something, but really it was the beginning of something else. And I feel there's there's a sense of that in the world at the moment.
Sabine Winters: Yeah. Like there, there's this cliche again, right? Like closing one door opens another. But it somehow is true. It somehow is true. I it works that way. Maybe not always, you know, I'm really aware that I'm saying this from a privileged perspective, but. Yes, indeed. A lot of doors, half closed are closing for the generations after us, and they are working very hard to open up new ones and I can see that.
And that's one thing I loved studying in my late twenties and late thirties, actually, I am 38 right now. Working with young, younger people. Working with teenagers, working with people that are in their twenties. I still feel like I'm twenty myself. not, I'm not. And they remind me gently of that, uh, every now and then.
But I love that because they have such a different perspective on things. You know, we can talk about different disciplines, but there are also differences in generations. Um, yes. Also important to take into account.
Amanda Reeves: So you've given us a really beautiful insight into the breadth and complexity of the work you do. And the interesting threads that you follow. When you meet somebody who doesn't necessarily know what it is you do, how do you explain what it is that you do?
Sabine Winters: Well, this changes every time, every time I answer it's something different. but. I think, I always say that I love thinking about thinking, and I love talking about thinking, which really doesn't help much. But then I try to explain that I talk with scientists about Implementations of technology.
I teach film and philosophy courses, so we watch film fragments, and then talk about philosophical issues, for example identity or time or personality, or space or exactly when fiction meets science. I give workshops on utopian thinking and dystopian thinking.
Yeah, I think that is as clear as it might get. And if people then don't understand what I'm doing I can't really blame them. but it's like this wide range, this variety of things that I do and that also really makes me happy. Working with scientists and artists, writing about art and science. Often, I also say that I'm a programmer.
So I create programs for theaters or for institutions where scientists and artists talk together. And I moderate. That's the most clearest I can get. Yeah. I'm not a pitcher. I don't like that.
Amanda Reeves: You don't, you don't have your 30 seconds down.
Sabine Winters: No, no way. No.
Amanda Reeves: It changes as you do more things, as you get more insights into what it is you do and why you're doing it. Having an open, evolving, pitch that grows as you do.
Sabine Winters: Yes, exactly. And it also really what you said, like it also really depends on the bubble where I'm in, at that moment, but I think thinking about thinking programming, interdisciplinary programs is really what I do.
Amanda Reeves: My guest today was philosopher Sabine Winters. If you're curious to see the contents of the time capsule, or keen to collaborate on Things That Are, get in touch with Future Based. Their contact details will be available in the show notes.
I hope you enjoy today's conversation as much as I did.
FuturePod is a not-for-profit venture, we exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you'd like to support the pod, please check out our Patreon on the website. I'm Amanda Reeves. Thanks for joining us today.