A conversation with Sohail Inayatullah and Dada Shambushivananda remembering Shrii Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar (Baba). They discuss who he was, what he meant to each of them and what his legacy is and hope was for an exploitation free future for the world. And they also go a bit deeper into the Sarkar Game.

Interviewed by: Peter Hayward

More about Baba and the Guests

1. Sohail Inayatullah, Prout in Power. Delhi, Proutist Bloc, 2017

https://www.amazon.com.au/Prout-Power-Solutions-Reframe-Futures-ebook/dp/B072JZG7JW

https://www.metafuture.org/product/prout-power-2017-pdf/

2. Sohail Inayatullah, Situating Sarkar. Maleny, Gurukul, 1999

http://prsinstitute.org/downloads/related/social-sciences/futures/SituatingSarkar.pdf

3. Sohail Inayatullah and Jennifer Fitzgerald, Transcending Boundaries: P.R. Sarkar's Theories of Individual and Social Transformation. Maleny, Gurukul, 1999

http://prsinstitute.org/downloads/related/social-sciences/futures/TranscendingBoundaries.pdf

https://www.amazon.com/Transcending-Boundaries-Theories-Individual-Transformation/dp/0958586608

http://www.metafuture.org/library1/Sarkar&Prout/introduction_to_transcending_boundaries.pdf

4 Sohail Inayatullah, Marcus Bussey, and Ivana Milojevic. Neohumanistic Educational Futures: Liberating the Pedagogical Intellect.Taipei, Tamkang University, 2006,

http://prsinstitute.org/downloads/related/education/nhe/NeohumanistEducationalFutures.pdf

5. Sohail Inayatullah, Understanding Sarkar. Leiden, Brill, 2002

https://brill.com/display/book/9789004397798/BP000001.xml

https://www.metafuture.org/product/understanding-sarkar/

6. Sohail Inayatullah and Lu Na. Asia 2038: Ten Disruptions that Change Everything. Tamsui, Tamkang University. Uses Sarkar's framework to understand the futures of Asia

https://www.metafuture.org/product/asia-2038-2018-pdf/

https://www.amazon.com.au/ASIA-2038-Disruptions-Everything-Metafuture-ebook/dp/B07C3N397H

https://www.metafuture.org/product/asia-2038-mandarin2020-pdf/

7 Dada Pranavatmakananda. Shrii Shrii Anandamurti. Advent of a Mystery. Kolkata, Ananda Marga, 2017.

https://www.amazon.com.au/Shri-Anandamurti-Advent-Mystery/dp/1548308404

https://www.abebooks.com/9781548308407/Shri-Anandamurti-Advent-Mystery-Pranavatmakananda-1548308404/plp

ARTICLES ON SARKAR AND PROUT

https://www.metafuture.org/library-page/articles-by-sohail-inayatullah-1/

THE SARKAR GAME

Sohail Inayatullah, Using Gaming to Understand the Patterns of the Future: The Sarkar Game in Action. Journal of Futures Studies. Vol, 18, No. 1, 2013.

https://jfsdigital.org/articles-and-essays/2013-2/vol-18-no-1-september-2013/article/using-gaming-to-understand-the-patterns-of-the-future-the-sarkar-game-in-action/

More about Dada Shambhúshivánanda

Contact:

Dr. Dada Shambhúshivánanda

Aprikosgatan B 1, Lgh 1001

Hässelby 16560 , Sweden.

kulapati@gurukul.edu

http://gurukul.edu

Campus:

Ánanda Márga Gurukula (University) Cakradhuri

Gopal Ánandanagar, P.O. Chitmu, Dist. Purulia,

West Bengal , India

THE SARKAR GAME ITSELF

http://proutglobe.org/2012/09/the-sarkar-game/

https://library.teachthefuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sarkar-Game.pdf

Audio Transcript

Peter: Welcome to Future Pod. I'm Peter Hayward. This is gonna be an interesting conversation, one that I've been very enthusiastic about organizing for at least a couple of years, and I need to tell a brief story to explain what this conversation's about. Over 20 years ago, I met Sohail Inayatullah for the first time. He came down to do a couple of days teaching in Richard Slaughter's, Master of Foresight course at Swinburne University. And on day one, Sohail went through his usual bag of tricks, CLA, Macrohistory. And one of the macro histories he talked about was Sarkar's Social Cycle. And I was taken by everything Sohail said, but particularly the Social Cycle. That night and over coffee in the morning I sketched out what I thought was a little organizational game. A little drama that could be played with people in organizations that I thought would be useful. I showed it to Sohail. Sohail I think, said, cool. That of course is what some of us listening will know as the Sarkar game. It's got a moderate experience amongst a range of practitioners. But the Sarkar game is named after someone and that someone was P.R. Sarkar. So I've invited back two previous guests, Sohail Inayaullah and Dada Shambushivananda who both knew P.R. Sarkar very well.

Welcome to Future Pod .

Sohail: Great to be here, Peter.

Dada: Thank you.

Peter: So my question, my first question to you is, who was PR Sakar and where did you meet him?

Dada: I came in his contact in the year 1965 through one of my uncles who used to live in Bombay . And when Shrii P.R. Sarkar whom we used to affectionately call Baba, he was known by many names, Shri Shiri Anandamaurti , Shrii Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar but we used to call him Baba, which means the dearest one or affectionate one, a father like figure. And through him I came in contact with his movement and after a few months he visited a place in Northern India in Chandigarh where I used to study. And that's where I first saw him. He was born in 1921 or 22 in Jamalpur and it was a very small town a railway junction. And there was not even a library.

And yet he was like a spiritual stalwart. Somebody who had extraordinary gifts. He was omniscient, all knowing. He spoke many languages of the world. Later on when he started to compose songs and he gave 5,019 songs in a span of eight years. He showed his proficiency in music in ragas and raginis and different musical styles. So he was a multifaceted personality and what attracted me first was his spiritual and yogic practices. I learned meditation at my uncle's house. And then when I met him personally I was exposed to his extraordinary spiritual powers. But as I came closer and closer to him. , I realized that actually there was more to him than just only the spiritual dimension. So that was my beginning, meeting with him. Sohail, perhaps you want to add something?

Sohail: Yeah. For me it was 1975. I was at University of Hawaii as a student. And someone was running courses on meditation. And the course I took, the person was this dazzling instructor full of love and light and warmth and as I took his courses and he kept on saying it's not him who's so dazzling and wonderful, it's his spiritual teacher. And that was as Dada said, Shrii PR Sarkar, or Shrii Shrii Anandamurti. So then start to look at his life. And so if you divide this or see it as four persons, four ways to see this one would be Sarkar as the spiritual mystic. And that was what I was first introduced to. Then over time, as I took courses in Future Studies, I quickly understood looking at his work in the 1950s, aha, this person is actually a Futurist as well. Giving us even then early indicators of what this century could look like. And the third part was very much, if you look at Focault there's people within paradigms. Then there's people who create paradigms. I could see he was really on about epistemic revolution. So third was really, Sarkar is a creator of epistemes, someone who's a world thinker. And the last part really is how we met was through the Social Cycle Sarker as a Macrohistorian, giving a new way to understand history, politics, and social justice. So those are the four personas of this person that I found most most fascinating. So the ability to integrate the spiritual with macro history, with futures, with visionary leadership I would say is quite novel in human history.

Dada: And he had the knack of taking concepts which were already in practice, but giving a totally different connotations to them. For example, in this Social Cycle, he took the terms of the Indian caste system, like Shudra, Kshatriya, Vipra, Vaishya. Usually people would see them, people who are just laborers as Shudra and the Warriors at as Kshatriya but as they see them as castes and Vipras as the intellectuals and the Vaishya as the businessman. But he talked about collective psychologies, which prevail in the society at a particular point in time. And for example, these days, most of the countries of the world are going through the Vaishyan Age where the money is ruling. Anybody who has money controls the economic power, controls the political power, controls the institutions, and dictates what happens. Even if you are not a vaccine specialist, but if you have money, you become the spokesperson for that. Everybody should get a vaccine . So I think the collective psychology changes. And he gave a whole theory of Social Cycle that, one after the other, from the Shudra Era we get the Kshatriya Era .

I think he influenced many different fields of knowledge as Sohail mentioned. He did not only talk about languages, he knew all the languages and the grammar of different languages. He not only talked about psychology, he gave a new concept of, mind and microvita, the science of that there is mind present even in inanimate things, which is dormant. And so he made some seminal contributions in the field of spirituality, in the field of politics. He gave a concept of social revolution. And the concept of leadership called Sadvipras means the spiritual revolutionaries who would work to achieve progressive changes for human evolution in a very well thought out pre planned basis, whether in physical, mental, or spiritual spheres, but adhering to some moral and ethical framework or, with those principles. So he wanted to create value-oriented individuals who can stop the exploitation in the society. And that's why he faced a lot of opposition in his life. And he had to himself undergo a lot of suffering even as we all know what he experienced in his life.

And I was very inspired intellectually because when I was writing my doctoral dissertation , I was looking for a topic which would be meaningful. And so I chose the role of the planning nutrition interventions in developing countries. And I looked at what the multinational corporations were doing to alleviate hunger, but actually they were just only trying to fulfill their own vested interests. So I think his thoughts provided us a, as a very moral compass or a lens to filter and to look at what is really happening behind the scenes in the society. And I think in that respect, perhaps Sohail's work also was greatly influenced by his his contributions.

Sohail: Yeah to frame this, if you say the Sarkar from the spiritual view, the analogy I use is of the Diamond. So the top is spiritual practice, and then what another side is, of course, Social Service. You're doing something for others, but underneath it is that as Dada suggested you can do as much service as you want, but if there's no Social Justice, if actually power continues to accumulate for those who already have power, they get more, then the service in a way doesn't have the impact it could have. And the last part is Neo Humanism meaning Who are we as identity? Are we just egos or family? Nation state or our society, or can we in fact be humanity plus nature, a new planetary identity. So that's part one to it.

Part two for our listeners out there is Sarkar as a Futurist. So his early work has done as talked about in the fifties, was you can just read through some of the emerging issues he talked about. He talks about mind in technology, what we refer to today as Artificial Intelligence. But for 1950s, that was pretty interesting, Mind in Technology . Then he talked about the cellular agricultural revolution being inevitable. Today we are already seeing it. It took, 70 years from his speaking about it to actually, now we're trying to look in vitro meat, et cetera. Then he talked about artificial wombs and eventually most of how we create will be done in other forms. And then he talked about leaving the planet putting the mind in one construction, the body stays and the mind goes. So the stuff were on the cutting edge in 2021, he was already talking about in the late 1950s. So then as emerging issues as a futurist, I just have to go back to his early work. If people ask what are the emerging issues are falling I just read Sarkar. His work is a 1950s is pretty good now, not even going to his work in the 1980s where he talked about microvita, which is basically virus that enhances technology, and if you want to change the world, you figure out what these Memes are, what we now call meme revolution. He was talking about that again 42 years ago. You find what the memes are, you imbued them with consciousness and they're more likely because they're a better evolutionary fit to where we wish to go.

So that's Sarkar two, which is as futurist. Now the one in terms of you start out was the Sarkar game was he rethought Hegel and Marx. So if Marx was workers and capitalists and Hegel was, no these are ideals, this is more about the Geist, the history of mentalities. He said look, actually Worker, Warrior, Intellectual, Capitalists are ways of seeing the world, they are a way of thinking. They're not just physical, they're actually psychological. So the power of the Sarkar game, every time we run it organisations and say, okay, here's our vision of the future. Here's what's changing. And so in the Sarkar game, everyone sees the four powers at work in the organization. Who has the money? Who has the ideas? Who has the systemic power to either allow change or actually to destroy change? And who are the workers doing everything? So once that happens and then once goes, oh my God, this is what's going on. And the moment of realization is, again, as Dada just said, aha, we're missing that spiritual leadership. We're missing the way of thinking. Or the persons who can serve, who engage in social justice, who have the new ideas and who can create value. So that's been the power in every organization want to use it. It goes from our interesting futures exercise to actually know this deep structure tells us what we need to do.

Peter: Sohail can you just quickly, I know this is a tough one, but can you quickly, for the listeners who haven't actually seen a Sarkar game or played a Sarkar game, can you just quickly just spin people through when you play a Sarkar game, what is it you actually do?

Sohail: So the first part, when I run it, I do a bit on macrohistory. If you're gonna look at time and history, you can do linear. It's things keep on getting better cuz of technology, they can be cyclical, power always comes back. They can be pendulum as Sorkin goes back and forth or Sarkar there's four types of power. So we see that in history, going from a small village to a city state to empire. The Warriors take over. For the Warriors to expand, they need intellectuals. So you have ideas. Intellectuals are great, but they can't handle money. So the Capitalists come in. So almost every country today and world history as a whole, you can see that happening. So in the gaming situation, we take four scripts, which you folks wrote. Group one gets the worker script they're go in a room and act as workers. Group two has a warrior script. We invite them in and either they protect the workers, but more often than not, they pick them off or start to bully them. Even though the script says protect, they start to bully and attack 'em. Group three are the Intellectuals they come and say, wait a second, there's a better way to be. We can be better. We can be spiritual. We create new ideas. We can create a cooperative society. We can be these visionaries. And they either get shot or put down, or sometimes they succeed. And then group four comes in and says if you really wanna do well, let's monetize this. And so then you have this moment, all four, you never know who's going to win or can they work together to create a successful civilization where everyone's protected, everyone works, everyone's ideas are valued, a kind of utopian, a good society and that usually people say, aha, I have to become different.

And so every once in a while Sadvipras emerge who bring everyone together. And more often than that, one group just shoot others. They actually are working as Dada says from Ego, not from Neo Humanism, not from their greater self, from their ego self, and which then Sarkar goes back to if you're trying to create a better social society, you have to do the inner work. This is meditation, mindfulness service. Without that, it's nonsense. But if you're only doing that, then again, you're just sitting there doing your meditation. You're not involved in deep social justice. So that was always my attraction, not just someone who understood the unveiling of the future. Knew what was wrong with society and linked the inner work. So the Sarkar game organizations or as a tool to understand what's going on in Russia, Ukraine, or China or the US it's a very powerful lens to understand today and tomorrow.

Peter: Dada I'm interested, you mentioned collective consciousness cuz when I've played the Sarkar game or I've watched people learning through the Sarkar game there's something in the use of these caste archetypes that people reveal to themselves, their own limited way of thinking about themselves and reality. And it seems in the drama or the conflict of ideas that people can actually almost have a kind of a revolution in how they see themselves and their situation.

Dada: Yeah because collective psychology is rooted in the individual psychologies and in each human being there is that Acquisitive tendency. And there is also the instinct of Survival. There is the instinct of Growth. And when they become too much acquisitive, then also the power gets away from them. So it's like a cyclical kind of notion that there is the one era comes into being because that's what people think they are going to help everybody else. So that is the growth phase. But then when they come into power for some time, they are doing a lot of good to the society. People are quite happy. But after some time when they get entrenched in that power and they start to misuse power, then people's freedoms go away and then they start exploiting. And that's the time when somebody else has to rise to power. So I think what Baba was trying to do was that he was trying to show that unless you have moral or value-oriented individuals in the society. This exploitation will never end. Whether it is exploitation by the military or by the intellectuals or by the capitalist or merchant class. This will continue. Maybe the power will shift from one to another. Like the British left India, but the exploitation did not end. What the British were doing some of the Indian people, they started doing it to their fellow beings.

So you need some value orientation in society and that's why he used his spiritual and moral practices to bring that. So he started the education system so that everybody from the childhood, they can be nurtured to become a moralist person or a ethical person, or a good person or intelligent person and who has social consciousness, who would like to serve society. And not only, okay, you get education only so that you can become rich. You become a doctor to become rich. Millions of dollars to complete your education but then when you come out of it, you want to do the same thing. You want to recover all the money that you spent. So he wanted to create a different ethos, to create a new civilization.

And so that's why when he founded his spiritual movement, the very first discourse that he gave was on the gradual evolution of society. In 1955, 1st of January, 1955. So he talked about the Social Cycle at that time. He just gave a hint. And then in 19 60 or 1959, he gave a series of discourses in which he elaborated those concepts. Then in 1961 , he gave a seminal discourse called Ananda Sutram, where he devoted 16 sanskrit aphorisms on the social philosophy in which he talked about social cycle also. And then in 1967, he devoted a whole book on the social cycle. . So I think his he gave these ideas over a period of time so that people would be able to assimilate them and become the examples of of what he wanted to create.

So I think his objective was to create sadvipras, these revolutionaries, and that takes time. That doesn't happen over night. And so his love for the plants, for animals, for humans, irrespective of caste, creed, color, race, religion. His thinking was so broad, cosmopolitan, and he touched all domains of knowledge from arts, music, farming, to agriculture and languages, history. Even writing stories for children. So he showed us that this social change is not only political change or not only economic change, or not only social. It has to be a total transformation of all aspects of life. And that we saw in his personality. And as I came close to him I realized that he knew past, present, future, and yet when he was with you, he was just there, very normal way, he would interact with you just like he was a normal human being.

When he gave me the duty to build up a university based on his ideas, it was called Gurukul. And so I went into his room. That was just the last 40 days of his life. And he asked me, do you understand the scope of responsibility I've given you? I said, yes, Baba. Will you be able to do it? I said, by your grace, I will surely be able to do it. And then he smiled and he whispered in my ears, I have done most of your work. So all his life he had been building up, to leave behind a legacy. Both in theory and practice which has to be shared to the next generation. So I think his work is intergenerational work and I think that's very inspiring that, he did not think that quick fix. He did not want any quick fix, but he wanted something which would be built by one generation after another. And there was a very clear goal, and that is he wanted to create an exploitation free society. A society in which there is as I mentioned, there is freedom, there is happiness, there is prosperity, there is progress, there is justice. And that's very inspiring to, live with a person who lived all his life for those ideals.

Sohail: I guess one way for the accountant to understand that this is it'd be the quintuple bottom line. So there's Prosperity and we know if you have a prosperous life organization, things are easier. The second P is Planet. Meaning this is about Gaia about all living beings, how to protect them. Third is about Purpose. We know if there's an issue, always go back to purpose, personal purpose during Covid 19, what's my purpose? Organizational purpose? National purpose? What's our purpose as a planet? So there's Planet Prosperity, Purpose, and if you're gonna do this you have to have Partnerships. It won't work just alone, whether it's a partnership of ourselves, partnership with others, partnership with, as Dada said, this is intergenerational partnership with the future. It's very much a long-term orientation. The last P is People. This means deep inclusion, not just in terms of representation but neohumanism, who we truly are.

Peter: I'll just draw it back to again, my experience of watching this game play out when people play it. Yep. Two things. There's, it makes clear the need to work together, but it also, back to Dada's point is people try to do it from their own individual episteme and ideology. And they fail spectacularly in the room trying to do their best. They often do their worst in trying to be just, they actually act unjust. And that experience, I think for many people is quite it's quite a searing experience because they believe they are good. They believe they are just, they believe they are interested in creating a better future, and yet they acted out something that was the antithesis of that.

Sohail: We've had. Having run this as you have, I think I've run at least a hundred times. I know when I run it with senior law enforcement leaders in this world. And many of them when they failed, they said, please don't tell the Commissioner there's no way I'll get promoted. They said I thought I would act this way, but I didn't. I know when we were running this with family daycare services long time ago, as the game started, the workers came out, started to take care of kids, did this family daycare system, and the Warriors came out and they immediately shot the workers for reasons which we didn't understand. The intellectuals came in the game and what they did, they looked at the workers on the ground and they went back to their computers and opened up Excel spreadsheet and they just counted how many people died. Then the capitalist came in and quickly bought the guns and shot the warriors. Now the CEO of the organization, the peak body, she said, okay, here's what just happened. She said, intellectuals don't feel that their policy work has any national impact. So they're not even going to make a try to use ideas to make a difference. They're just gonna count. The capitalists or the new for-profit enterprises coming in the system. They took over the old rules based, and the rules based came in because they felt individuals running family daycare centers weren't following the rules, so the warriors just eliminated them. We have to have a rules-based system, and now the big players came in and wiped everyone out.

And so that's exactly what happened in the last 10 years. So that moment actually was the indicator of the emerging world. Now, when we ran this with one large mental health organization, one of the warriors pretty much shot everyone in the room. And later when the Chair of the board said, let's talk about this, and she said you folks are about to move towards this new vision. And this is a new vision of a better future, a more inclusive planet. And that's the fifth P is people, inclusive people. You're about to do this, but I can see you're going back. You're not ready to make the step forward. You don't have the long-term orientation, you don't have the courage, you don't have the vision. So it's better I shoot everyone, so at least I'm doing what's right. And so I said, what's your metaphor? She said, I'm the Angel of Mercy. I'm the Angel of Light. Everyone in the room has to figure out, either we make the jump to a world better future or we don't.

So today we're in the same situation. The climate change is saying we need to make a jump toward global governance and green renewables. Discrimination in females, feminism says no, gender equity is the solution. The challenge that the UN can't stop Russia against Ukraine because of the security council system. So we have systems and structures that worked a hundred years ago perhaps, or 50 years ago, but they clearly don't work now. So if we ran a global Sarkar game, we would see we are on the verge of the evolutionary transformation. We have to make the jump. Can we? So again, this is why Sarkar intellectually is so unique. There's a spiritual dimension, a futures dimension, macro history is saying you need to create these new leadership group who actually help create the future.

And then there's a visionary part. As he said to Dada he imagined this new world system, a better world government, our identity, neo humanist, more focused spiritually, more focused on spirituality and instead of the corporate system, that Dada again critiqued earlier, a cooperative system. So if you look at Twitter, the battle and Twitter, it's actually a global public good. It should be run as a co-op. Because everyone's using it for global public health, global ideas. So we're in a situation where the capitalists aren't this case being part of the solution, they're being part of the problem. If we look at Russia, again, you went from a warrior system, the boshevik, they came in intellectual ideas around around communism. The capitalists came in and quickly, now we have a situation where he's gone back to empire. So Putin as a warrior, taking Ukraine for its economic resources. So both are mixing together not for the greater good, but for the greater bad. So Sarkar game shows us quickly, how do I use capital for the greater good? How do I use ideas for the greater good? How do I use warrior power systemic rules for the greater good? And how do we as workers work with the greater good? So this was the challenge Sarkar saw in the fifties and actually laid down, here's how you can do this and it can work. It's a long, passionate response to your question.

Dada: He felt that the potentialities of the society are not being fully tapped due to a defective social order. So he wanted to correct that. First he wanted to explain what are the dynamics of the social order? And then he gave, okay, what the inequities that existing, unless they are rectified, you won't be able to you can do, try to do much good, but it doesn't work because the way systems are inequitable. So I think his goal was to really make us conscious, make us aware of where the structural changes would be needed and where the individual who run that structure also need to change. Because you can have any structure, but if you not run by good people, then again you revert back to the old systems of exploitation. So I think he saw the importance of both the individual and the collective structures, both individual has to be transformed, has to be elevated. That's why he gave attention on individual development on meditation, on yoga, on moral principles, on value system, new humanism, all these things only for the individual growth.

But then at the same time, he also talked about social service. But as Sohail was mentioning earlier that, social service alone cannot do good unless, you know the very systems are exploitative.. So you have to change the system. . And his PROUT, the progressive utilization theory, it challenges the very capitalist system because his very principles say no individual should be allowed to accumulate any physical wealth without the clear permission or approval of the collective body. You are hitting at the very root of capitalism, which is laissez faire economy. One person can have billions and the other person can starve on the street. He says this is immoral. So I think we have to go back to his his worldview of how to create a world government, how to create an equitable economy, how to increase the purchasing power of the people and how to help individuals to become spiritually motivated, so I think it's a very roadmap for spiritual revolution. ,

Sohail: just in terms of resources. Dada has a new book out. Maybe you can say something about that Dada

Dada: you mean the one which was Towards the Brighter Future? Yeah. In this book, I have talked about his life and as I saw him and my personal experiences with him and his contributions to the world and his future vision. Anybody who's interested, of course we can arrange to get it to them.

Peter: Yeah, we'll certainly have that in the links. I'm gonna close on this one. It's as if Sarkar, if Baba was here today, what would he suggest? What would he point us to do?

Dada: From my perspective, I think he will say, unite all the moral and righteous people. Bring them together and nurture the young to follow the moral and this part of service, a new humanistic path and launch movements for protection of the nature of plants and animals and, rare species of plants which are becoming extinct. Create habitats for he created about, 88 sanctuaries at Ananda Marga, just to show that every city should have enough space for the animals, for birds, for their habitat should not be taken over and just, we start building, human buildings everywhere. So I think it's just to bring back the society to the, to a balance, to a prana oriented society. I think he gave the plans and programs that he gave 50 years ago, if they are implemented today, I think still will be ahead of the game.

Sohail: There was a piece I wrote recently and it was like here's four ways to see the future of the world system. The first metaphor is Invisible Hand, right? Laissez Faire. And then you have in East Asia went to Visible Hand, let's have Market with the State, have more inclusion. And then you have the Stakeholder Capitalism people saying for Capitalism to succeed, it's more inclusion. But there's a third framework, which is called Shared Hands, and that was Sarkar PROUT meaning essentially it's cooperatives lead the way more efficient, more economical, more green, more inclusive. But the fourth way afterwards, I call that Magical Hands. And Magical Hands is really the mix of microvita, spiritual memes, consciousness, transformation with AI and new technologies. So that's the way to think about the next 50 to 100 years. At the personal level, I think exactly what Dada said to do the inner work. I need to make sure I'm doing my meditation or whatever spiritual path I'm on, and two, stay focused on the vision of the future and not get involved in the narcissism of differences. Because there's so many differences with 8 billion people there. Stay focused. Here's an alternative future in terms of where we can see the planet going, stay focused on that, and then do the social service to move towards there, whatever needs to be done. So I think he would go in this times where there's disagreement times where there's difficulty, stay with the vision, stay with where we wish to go and do the inner work to get there.

Peter: Great. Look thank you. Thank you Sohail for introducing me to Baba over 20 years ago. Yes. 7th of August, 2001. It's in the fly cover of the book. I bought off you and you signed for me. So thank you for that. Thank you Dada for continuing and building the next part of Baba's Vision through Gurukul. And thanks to each of you for coming back to Future Pod.

Dada: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Sohail: Pleasure. I hope this will be of use.

Peter: Thanks to Sohail and Dada for telling us much, much more about the man, the consciousness, behind the Sarkar game and a whole lot more. There'll be more information on both Sarkar and the game in the show notes. I hope for people who use the Sarkar game, there's something in here which is going to deepen your practice of it. And for people who haven't had a chance to use the Sarkar game, but wouldn't mind giving it a try, I hope it's encouraged you to do that. But thanks to my participants and thanks for listening. Futurepod is a not-for-profit venture. We exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you want to support the Pod then please go to the Patreon link on our website. This is Peter Hayward saying goodbye for now.