EP 159: Decolonial Inclusive Futures - Zan Chandler

 
 

Our guest is Zan Chandler who is an Adjunct Professor at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada and is also Foresight Analyst and Educator. She is a Board Member at the Association of Professional Futurists. A member of Global Foresight Advisory Council for TFSX.

Zan helps clients, learners and mentees to understand the nature and implications of change and discover ways thrive in the face of complexity and he/she is preoccupied by many questions: how do we do this work in ways that centre the marginalized and responds compassionately to those who live with trauma?

Interviewed by: Peter Hayward

More about Zan and OCAD

Some Major Research Projects by SFI graduates related to decoloniality:

Audio Transcript

Peter Hayward: When you appreciate that Futures and Foresight arose within a dominant Western perspective of the realities and morals of alternative futures then how can you get outside that if it is necessary?

Zan Chandler: And so just wake people up to the fact that don't forget that there are other experiences out there. And to the point of this dystopia that you're dreaming of is the lived experience for millions of people today on this planet. So raising films, artwork, papers, videos, of content creators, artists and writers of different genres that are outside of the mainstream that perhaps do not get the attention that present different ways of seeing the world that allow my students of color to see themselves reflected in the way that, that wasn't there when I was a kid.

Peter Hayward: That's my guest today Zan Chandler who is an Adjunct Professor at OCAD University in Toronto, Canada and Zan joins me to talk about that and a number of other topics. Welcome to Futurepod Zan.

Zan Chandler: I'm happy to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Peter Hayward: It's a pleasure Zan. What's the Zan Chandler story? How did you become a member of the Futures and Foresight community?

Zan Chandler: Well it's a bit of a meandering story crossing multiple continents. I think since I was ever, since I was a young girl, I was always interested in the Future. In space and that kind of thing. The science fiction fan. My father and I spent lots of time watching science fiction movies and TVs together.

So I was always dreaming about what the future might look like. And always at the time didn't even realize that I wasn't seeing images of myself in that. Like images of people. And I was perfectly fine with just dreaming about all of that but that carried on into my teen years. And I think I was always thinking about creating stories. Imagining possibilities. I ended up after studying Linguistics which was a bit of a weird segue, but very thankful that I did that. Cuz that was my introduction into Systems Thinking though I didn't know it at the time.

I spent a year in Australia and I studied photography at the Sydney School of Photography and that got me started in the cultural sphere and taking photographs, shooting film, and whatnot. And part of my career led me to work for the Canadian Federal Government essentially working on cultural policy right at the time that the internet and digital technologies were changing the landscape. And I was lucky enough to work on the Task Force that was looking at this and trying to figure out what does this mean for all the policies, for the funding instruments and tax credits and other types of things. And it was a Foresight project. We were thinking about change. And we were thinking about the implications of change.

Of course we had no idea we were doing Foresight. There was nobody who had been trained or even exposed to it but we were trying our best. And I often think I wish I could go back and work on that project again. Now I have the tools to help me through it. That started it for me in a way. And after I did that, I was lucky enough to do a residency at the Canadian Film Center Media Lab where I met Suzanne Stein. And she she came in and did a workshop on this Foresight thing and I thought Ooh interesting. I like that. And then the coincidentally, not very long after that, the Strategic Foresight and Innovation program at OCAD opened up and I was part of the cohort and lucky enough to study with Suzanne who I now teach with and to study with Helen Kerr, who I've worked on foresight project with over the last eight years.

Peter Hayward: So you actually did the initial OCAD course with Suzanne.

Zan Chandler: Yes. I was part of the first cohort.

Peter Hayward: So we have a similar story cuz I was in the first cohort of Richard Slaughter's foresight course at Swinburne and like you, I was in government, I was mucking around. Didn't realize I was trying to do foresight projects when I was working in the government and then I met a real futurist and I've gone Oh they're different. So that's interesting that we followed what I call the pracademic path. We started doing foresight before we actually understood what the hell foresight was.

Zan Chandler: Which actually I think is a great way of doing things. I work in an academic institution. And I work with people who are both practitioners and theoreticians. And this particular program is really interesting cuz it gives you a bit of both. And I know students really respond to being able to see things from both sides and I've come to learn myself that the best learning experience for me is to do a bit and then learn the theory and do a bit more and go deeper into the theory.

Peter Hayward: We know that thinking about the future is an innately human thing to do, and it's not just innately human, it's innate to many other animal species as well. But the fact that people who aren't trained in it can naturally do it because they want to change things, they want to improve things. And yet, is there a tension with what as a discipline we think that people should be trained in this in order to do it well? There's both an innately human part to it. And then we have constructed this kind of not saying you can't, but really you should be trained. You should be part of the orthodoxy and everything else.

Zan Chandler: Yeah. I see that tension. Most definitely. Especially when I talk to my colleagues who are deeply involved in Participatory Futures work. And I totally enjoy reading the foresight theory, reading about the works of great academic thinkers, et cetera, et cetera, as well as those people who are going out there and doing foresight projects. And many of those people are doing both of those, which is great. But it feels very rooted in a modernist Western perspective to say you have to be academically trained and you have to come from a specific position. You have to use a specific methodology. Otherwise you're not doing future's work properly. And I really enjoy the methods and the methodology. I really enjoyed going into that. I really enjoy practicing it and getting better and understanding at a deeper level why I'm doing what I'm doing. But I also want to be able to leave space for people who have the lived experience. And as I become more and more of a student around whether it's Inclusive Futures or Decolonized Futures or whatever we wanna call it and read more thinkers from other parts of the world, indigenous thinkers from North America or Australia or many African countries there you see that tension. Of the expert in the method and in the theory versus the experts in the lived experience.

Peter Hayward: Futures, as I look at, it has gone through like any disciplined approach has gone through its phases, has gone through it's revolutions in thinking to the new paradigms. Are we starting to bump into the next real paradigm in future's work? Where it does own up to that futures has been an instrument of power and orthodoxy in order to sustain orthodoxy. And is this paradigm around futures being, as you say, a decolonizing action rather than a colonizing action?

Zan Chandler: I would agree with you. I think that we are on the edges of this area. This zone of fuzziness and conflict. Maybe we're making a shift to another paradigm. That will probably be clearer when we're a little further along, but I do think there's something really interesting going along. Just where I think about who I'm coming across, who I'm reading or listening to, or hearing at conferences and things like that who are challenging the history and the practice of foresight and future's work and also bringing in other ways of thinking whether it's Indigenous philosophies, whether it's being in, some people hate this this phrase, but being Trauma Informed. When you're doing work, whether, regardless of what kind of work you're doing in certain communities and communities that have experienced intergenerational trauma, who are experiencing lived trauma, this kind of work can be very detrimental, can be very triggering. And so how can we do that with more care and compassion? That's definitely a learning path for me. I am not an expert in that I'm learning as I go along in the same way that I'm learning about if I want to work with Indigenous communities in Canada that I have a lot to learn. And so I'm on that journey and I see people graduates of this program and other friends within the Foresight community are grappling with this question. Who are recognizing, wait a second. We haven't really thought about what we're doing from the other perspectives. Let's spend some time doing that now.

Peter Hayward: Yeah. Beautiful. Thanks Zan

 So what's in Zan's bag of tricks? Can you maybe talk about a framework or an approach that is either central to what you do or something that you're trying to make central to what you do?

Zan Chandler: Well, I could think about two things. Because I learned Systems and Foresight together. Even though I had perhaps a little bit more experience thinking about systems or understanding the nature of systems. That systems existed before coming into Foresight. I learned them together. And so the idea of doing Foresight without having a serious Systems underpinning just is crazy to me. I can't conceive it because in my brain, those two are wired together. And so as I have progressed and learned to become a better practitioner, I have been doing my studies in systems as well. So that will be one thing. So to bringing a systems approach to any kind of project that I'm working on is definitely something I do more readily these days.

But this Decolonial Inclusive Futures I think is a way of moving about in this space. That's been taking up much more of my time and energy and trying to reconceptualize what does my practice look like? Luckily working at OCAD it's an institution that is going through a process of Decolonization. The program is as well. We don't know what that looks like? That will have to be created. And that's exciting. So continuing to try to bring those perspectives to recognize that we have multiple ways of looking at things. We have multiple ways of experiencing and they should all be invited into the discussion. How you deal with that, how you process that information. I don't know. It's all a process of becoming I think.

Peter Hayward: Yeah. So perhaps for people can you maybe just talk through some of the things that you are becoming aware of? The ways that you critical examine how you do a piece of work or how you do an an engagement or design a curriculum that at least tries to bring it to the surface rather than just let it be unthought of?

Zan Chandler: And that's a process that's evolving again. And I think over the last few years we've been making an effort and certainly I've been making an effort in whichever class I'm teaching to bring in more writing and other content that comes from outside of the Western European and North American cannon. We have for the last several years, we've been exploring Afrofuturism as well as Indigenous Futurism and trying to present the basic concepts of the images of the future that we have been playing with within the mainstream, that we learn about in school, that we read in strategy documents, or out there in the business world, present a particular perspective that often doesn't represent the hopes and dreams and lived realities of Indigenous people and other racialized people.

And so just wake people up to the fact that don't forget that there are other experiences out there. And to the point of this dystopia that you're dreaming of is the lived experience for millions of people today on this planet. So raising films, artwork, papers, videos, of content creators, artists and writers of different genres that are outside of the mainstream that perhaps do not get the attention that present different ways of seeing the world that allow my students of color to see themselves reflected in the way that, that wasn't there when I was a kid.

 Or very rarely there. I mean witness the brouhaha over Ariel in the latest Disney movie. I don't know if you've seen these videos on Instagram of little black girls who see the trailer and they're just delighted to see someone who's brown, you know like. That is a radical thing is stupefying. So allowing students to be, they're pushing, they're definitely pushing too, cuz each year more and more of them are coming in saying, what about this? What about that? They're helping to grow the curriculum in that regard. So particularly important for us in terms of living in North America and the work that Indigenous communities have been doing tirelessly for a very long time and the efforts on the part of the country to recognize the historical harm and the consequences of that. Whether it's kids who've been taken away from their families into residential schools or the thousands of missing and murdered women. So coming up at the end of the month we have a new holiday, a national day of Truth and Reconciliation.

Yeah. So certainly over the last couple of years with the pandemic and the disproportionate impacts on indigenous and racialized communities people wanna talk about that more. They want to understand that.

Peter Hayward: As you broaden a curriculum what is it we're asking students to do apart from just read more broadly? We're also asking students to to really run the dialectic of, there is, the Western cannon, there is the aspirations of colonial society that felt it was that felt it was bringing civilization. And then alongside it is the lived experience of the other, the lived experience of the powerlessness. How do we educate students so that they can do that dialectic process of thesis antithesis ultimately to find synthesis because I think that's, what's coming up in all these push backs against thing they call wokism is that people see us going from one to the other, rather than asking people to work with all elements?

Zan Chandler: And I think this is the big fear for a lot of people around Decolonization and certainly there are multiple opinions on this Decolonization across the country. Depending on your perspective, as I said, being in Canada, the questions around Decolonization are deeply connected to Indigeneity, but because we are also a country that is populated largely by immigrants, there are many people who live in this country whose families, whose ancestors were colonized by European countries and have been raised in that context. And. Yeah. I think I recognize there is the fear. It's well, we can't leave all of that stuff behind. And while there are certain people who are like Uhhuh, yeah, we can

Peter Hayward: That's what the future let us do.

Zan Chandler: But yeah, ultimately we want the students to go out there and be able to practice and earn a living. And so this is the Western. We introduce that most definitely and say, but this is not the only thing out there. And if you're going to be doing work with these communities, you need to understand some of their history and in conjunction with other classes. So this decolonization work is happening some to varying degrees in varying classes. And so we're understanding what does it mean to do research? Say design research with Indigenous communities? Well there's a robust set of literature around design with, and in, Indigenous communities as well as protocols. So students are becoming, if they want to do this, they can explore that even further.

It really is an introduction. It is a way of saying, Hey look. There's this established cannon that you will see out there everywhere, but that's not the only thing. There are these other ways of seeing and doing and being, and it's good to know them both and to know when to apply what and try not to harm people along the way. And it is a process, right? I mean, we are not experts. So we are learning as we're going through. And what's wonderful about it is students are coming in, who are deeply experienced in some of this work, whether it's in design justice or design within Indigenous communities or systems work like that, they come in and they teach us and we learn from them as well, which is wonderful.

Peter Hayward: Good. Thanks Zan

 So around you, what are the futures that you are paying particular, careful attention to as they emerge? And why are particular futures really getting your attention at the moment?

Zan Chandler: Well, I guess because I'm kind of deeply diving. Into like Afro futures trying to stay connected with the global black diaspora and what's going on there. Those are the kinds of things that I've been paying attention to. So the stories, the work that's coming out of that. The practitioners, as well as the scholars who are working in that space and it's been really interesting since COVID, and since the the murder of George Floyd, the openness around discrimination, racism, sexism, homophobia, whatnot. That just, all of that seems to be well, certainly in the circles that I'm going in. I mean, I recognize some people disagree with that off of bat. And I don't often have an opportunity to be in dialogue with them about it, cuz I think. They it's a self weeding garden. This is the stuff I'm interested in. They don't agree with it. So they stay away. So I'm paying attention to that.

 In the last few years, graduates are going out and doing interesting things. The graduate of mine of the program who was the student of mine, she and some other consultants have started a company that I think is fascinating. And it's definitely built on Indigenous principles, the way that they interact with their clients, the way that they deal with their time, their whole way of operating is very different to a typical consulting firm. I'm feeling stuff like that's happening out there new businesses that are saying, you know, I don't like we're not going the old way. We're charting new path that is a little more, how could I say, a little more humane? It isn't all about making tons of money, but about, recognizing that we are all part of a global ecosystem and plants are kin and the animals are kin and we need to pay attention to our physical and mental wellbeing and spiritual wellbeing. Yeah, it's all it's maybe a little bit woo woo to some

Peter Hayward: It might have been just sounding woo except for the two years of COVID that we just went through when we blew up the status quo. When people told us that these things that we all did for two years, couldn't be done. The fact that all universities went online at a time when there would've been universities saying, well, we can't teach online. Almost all workplaces went home based when there were organizations saying they couldn't do it. So COVID was not a great experience for really anybody. However, it was a pressure cooker that simply broke the status quo to the point that it hasn't come back. We are now in that weird limbo period of which parts do we bring back and which parts do we just simply not even worry with anymore? And that sounds to me like your students are a kind of in that limbo period going, you know, we don't need to go back to the old model. We, we now can basically create whatever model we want.

Zan Chandler: And I really do feel like many of them are doing that. They're going out there and they are creating new models. I mean, they the student, the graduates are going into the full range of organizations, whether it's public sector, private sector and they're doing really interesting things. But I am particularly interested in hearing about the ones who are pushing back against the Rat Race and the need to generate as much profit as possible.

Peter Hayward: I keep wondering whether the generations that have grown up with the internet, the generations that have now grown up been through things like the GFC, the Precariat for jobs, and now the COVID experience, are they just fundamentally wired differently? Because yes, they're human beings, but they've had such a different lot of life experiences than what I had.

Zan Chandler: I am sure they. I am sure they are. And more and more of our understanding how experience is affecting our genetic code. And I think so I really do think that they see the world in a different way. I think about young folks here who have been encouraged to step on this conveyor belt, this work career conveyor belt, and being asked to, to follow the steps of finish high school, go to university, get a job, get married, have kids buy a house, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When I was in Australia, Melbourne and Sydney were expensive places to buy homes in. And that was decades ago. Yeah. and you know, Toronto is now catching up with that. This is not possible. They can't afford, they just, they can't afford if the real estate is just crazy and their student loans are astronomical. No wonder, they're saying, I don't wanna be in this Rat Race. I want to do work, meaningful work, be fairly compensated, but I am not giving everything to the job. I have friends, I have family, I have my health. And the planet is going to hell in a hand basket I've got work to do.

Peter Hayward: Yes. And again I bring it back to us as a community. We have the orthodoxy, we have the universities teaching the courses. We have the journals publishing the journal articles, and then we have almost another generation of people coming through that. I don't know that we as a community, we are learning enough from them rather than them learning from us?

Zan Chandler: Yeah, I wonder, I think that goes back to this idea of challenging, the notion of being the expert. We may be extraordinarily knowledgeable in specific areas, but certainly not everything. And we've everybody has something to teach us. Yeah.

Peter Hayward: Thanks Zan.

 The communication question. How do you describe to people what Zan does when people don't understand what it is that Zan does?

Zan Chandler: Well, usually by saying I'm a Foresight practitioner and educator there, I get that blank look but I think it really depends on who they are, where they're coming from. I learned this great piece of advice from a friend of mine who works in the Canadian government. Who used to work at the Treasury Board, which is, I guess the Department in the Federal Government that sets out many of the policies around Finance. How money moves, et cetera, et cetera, as well as rates of pay and all of that kind of thing. And so she had a very nebulous job. I call it that she might not call it that . But she had a job that wasn't very clearly defined. This is a woman who was a dancer has a dance degree, but ended up being responsible for funding to the nuclear industry in the country. Right. Extraordinarily good at her job. And that particular job as a Treasury Board analyst is a very important one. And she said her piece of advice was "I always reflected back to them and say, what's the problem you're dealing with. I'll tell you how someone like me could help you."

So I thought, oh, that's really good. So sometimes they do that and if they come from the systems perspective, then maybe I take that angle. And I come in and I talk about current systems and change and have systems in the future. The purpose of the system and the structure of the system will have changed. So we're looking, what might cause that, and if they're coming in from an Art and Design perspective or definitely a Design perspective, a lot of designers can understand the perspective of you're not designing for today, or yesterday, you're designing for some point down the road. And so how do you arm yourself with enough intelligence to make a good guess at what those needs might be 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the road? So I try to figure out where they're coming from how they see the world and maybe what kind of problems they have, and then try to find some way for a future's perspective on it.

Peter Hayward: Thanks Zan

 I'm very excited to finally get someone from the OCAD program in front of a microphone. I've certainly spoken to many of the products of the OCAD program. I first came aware of OCAD when I was involved with the Swinburne program and we were submitting our Best Student Work to the Association of Professional Futurists. So I became aware of your work through that. Now, of course I'm the Chair of the Student Awards Process. And every year I see remarkable work coming out of your program. And so the question I'm dying to ask you, is what's the magic, what's the secret?

 There are good programs in other universities, but there's something unique about the OCAD program in terms of the work that I see the students doing. Can you talk to the listeners about OCAD. What it's about, what makes it different. And also if there's any chance, if people are interested how they might get some of the secret sauce themselves?

Zan Chandler: Absolutely. I'm always happy to talk about the program. I think one of the, one of the key things about the program is the fact that it's situated within an Art and Design institution. And because of that those perspectives of Creative Lateral Thinking are just core. Collaboration, creative lateral thinking are core to the whole program. The student body comes from a very diverse range of industries and sectors. The year that I was in one of my cohort was a MBA professor from Queens University in Ontario. We've had science fiction novelists. There are usually Designers, but it's a Master of Design program. So people think that you need to be Designers to come into it, but that is not the case. People from Finance, from Healthcare. A broad range and because it's, so group work oriented, you really learn about collaboration and how the way you work, optimal work needs styles for working with other people. So I think that's it. And the program really focuses on Futures Thinking, Systems Thinking, Design Thinking and of course there are classes around Leadership and Strategy as well in there. It's quite a broad range of skills that you need to be a Leader in the Future, a Change Maker in the Future.

So even though Foresight is in the name of the program and the foresight class, it's just one foresight class. It's a big class. However, it's a four hour class every week. It's a studio class. So, there's a lot of doing in there. I think that's it, you know? Just people coming from different backgrounds who have a desire to learn new skills, to help either change careers, change their industries, change their organizations. And they bring all of that. They bring systems, strategy design, as well as foresight and futures to their projects. And often the projects that get submitted for the APF student awards are the culminating dossiers from the foresight studio, which is the class that I teach with Helen Kerr and with Suzanne Stein or it's their major research projects where that's the big project at the end that enables them to take everything they've learned from two years or two and a bit years in the program.

Peter Hayward: Running a program like that is in my experience is not easy in universities. Universities are odd places. You would think they would embrace openness and learning and creativity. And yet in my experience, universities actually have got antibodies that ensure that they're not creative and they're not open.

Zan Chandler: OCAD is the oldest Art and Design institution in the country, like 130 something years old. It's been around for a long time. And has a reputation for graduating interesting thinkers and artists. And so I think because we're in an Art and Design institution, some of the assumptions around how we might operate are perhaps less intrusive. And so there's a bit more freedom, but OCAD's been in a transition from being a College to a University before I started the program. So it's over 10 years ago. And so things have changed, right? So the requirements of a university are different to a college here in Ontario. And we are extremely successful program. So perhaps we get given a little bit of leeway.

Peter Hayward: In terms of keeping, keeping Deans happy with numbers of students coming through door and so forth you have obviously been successful in that respect as well.

Zan Chandler: Yes. Yes, but I really do think being centered in an Art and Design institution, especially one that has such a long legacy, is I don't know whether the program could have exactly the same shape and the same result in other places. That's not to say that it couldn't, but I think we are very lucky.

Peter Hayward: For people who aren't based in the Toronto area or can't get to the Toronto area, is there any is there any capacity for a broader student cohort than just locals?

Zan Chandler: Yes. That is coming. And the pandemic definitely demonstrated that. So in the years where we weren't having classes on campus, we had many International students zooming in, from different parts of the world. And the university and the program definitely recognized that. And we don't have a program launched yet, but I do believe that is in the offing. So, yeah. Soon

Peter Hayward: Is the Design, if I can use the word, container for foresight, is that making an impact in the journals and so forth of Futures and Foresight and the actual orthodoxy? Or is it still an unusual part of Foresight?

Zan Chandler: I think it's still a bit unusual. I'm seeing some graduates get into the journals. But I'm not seeing, I'm not aware and I'm not paying particularly close attention to that. So there's maybe more going on than I'm aware of. I think because this world loves its silos. And Foresight that can't be separated from Systems or from Design Thinking. Can sometimes maybe not find a particularly comfortable seat in more siloed spaces though. I do think that the foresight space is generally quite open. Because there are lots of people who move back and forth between systems. And I'm sure there must be more people moving back and forth between foresight and design, particularly if you think about design futures and experiential futures and things like that, there's a lot more dialogue going in there.

Peter Hayward: Zan. Is there something about the way that OCAD is using this old Design school to bring in alternative ways of thinking systems, design, foresight, but also arcing back to this notion of we need to get better at other ways of understanding. We need to get better at listening to people who are different to us. Is there is there something that's going on in OCAD that makes it a way of working that actually works for our modern condition. For the fact that things are not working out. That the status quo is not taking us towards good futures. That as you said there are dystopias that are here right now.

Zan Chandler: I think that Art and Design institutions have a long history of providing a space for counter culture, creators, and thinkers. For people who can observe the world and present a different perspective on it. Reflect back the not so niceties. And so I think that is something that's unique about this program coming out of an Art and Design institution. That space is already comfortable with people who are gonna speak truth to power. Who are gonna dream up new ways of being. Who are gonna break orthodoxies. And I think that gets infused in the program in some ways, in the sense of the people who choose to go there. They're choosing to go to an Art and Design institution that's going to expose them to Futures and Systems Thinking and Design and not to an MBA program. And I teach in an MBA program as well. I teach Futures Thinking at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto. And it's a different experience most definitely. We're not teaching people how to become Forsighters we're teaching them perhaps to be the sort of people who will hire forsighters or commission foresight work.

So they're being exposed to Futures Thinking. But they attack the work from a very different perspective with different types of goals. The Art and Design container, I think creates a space for people to come in and say, I don't really know what this is, and I don't know what I'm gonna get out of it in the end, but there are these really interesting inputs here. Whether it's the curriculum, whether it's the other students, whether it's being located in downtown Toronto. With all of the stuff that's going around, the museums and the art galleries and the nightclubs and the film shoots and the restaurants and all of that stuff, which creates an opportunity for people to be exposed to new ways of being, and seeing and doing and I'm not surprised that the communities that have been quite active within the broader space, like the black community and the indigenous community communities and Indian communities. They're bringing in their traditions, their ways of thinking and being, and I think that to a certain extent, it creates an atmosphere where that is all okay. This is the world we live in. Toronto is a very unique place. It's a very multicultural city. With lots of tensions that come from that. But I think that most people who live in the city appreciate the good things that come from multiple cultures and multiples perspectives, ways of seeing butting up against each other and what you can learn from that. So I don't think it's a coincidence that this institution has this program is located in this city and then attracts students from across the country, but also around the world increasingly.

Peter Hayward: It's been a pleasure to finally meet and have a chat. Thank you very much for taking some time out to chat to the Foresight Community.

Zan Chandler: You're very welcome. It's been great. I really appreciate the work that you do for Futurepod.. And I direct my students to listen. There's lots for them to choose from so it's great. Keep up the good work.

Peter Hayward: Thanks Zan

My guest today was Zan Chandler. If you'd like to know more about the OCAD program then please check out the show notes. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation.

Futurepod is a not-for-profit venture. We exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you'd like to support the Pod, please check out our Patreon on the website. I'm Peter Hayward saying goodbye for now