A conversation with Shermon Cruz and Katindi Sivi about a new futures community being established, the Global South Futures Community.

Interviewed by: Peter Hayward

Transcript

Peter Hayward: Most of us in the futures and foresight community would recognize that ours is a field that has been historically dominated by voices from the Northern hemisphere. While that has changed somewhat in recent times, is there still a need for more voices and perspectives originating outside the Northern hemisphere?

Shermon Cruz: there has been in an increasing and growing interest in scholarship when it comes to decolonial futures and foresight practices, including sharing of cases studies on what futures and foresight practice looks like, in the global South.

That's the first one. And second, given the fact that there are many, futures and foresight practitioners who has been, developing. Tools and methods of sharing cases, studies, publishing them, gave us an idea of, why don't we try to create some sort of a community that enables us to, facilitate, South Forsyth exchange.

Katindi Sivi: One of the things I noticed whether it is beyond techniques into language, culture, geography, and that diversity, was that it was very global north dominated. That representation was very low. And so part of the reason why this was important for me was to ask myself, how can we get better representations of other voices in the global South into these conversations so that those different narratives and the work that is going on there is actually captured.

I think in my part of the world, the practitioners of foresight are quite few and far apart, and therefore, the question became, how do we also have a platform using a language and practices or, languages and, methods that other people in my part of the world can understand

Peter Hayward: Those are my guests today on FuturePod, Shermon Cruz and Katindi Sivi from the Global South Futures Community.

Peter Hayward: Welcome back to future pod Sherman.

Shermon Cruz: Yes. I really look forward to this conversation again, Peter. And again, you know, for giving us the opportunity to have a conversation with you about our organization. And the colonial teachers, you know, I always look forward to speaking and having this wonderful platform, you know, to share about what we're currently doing.

Shermon Cruz: Peter,

Peter Hayward: thanks Sherman. Well, it's been a couple of years since you was, you were on the pod. I think you've had a couple of guys. I think you, I think we had you on as a guest and I think you also came on in the In the IF Awards, we had you on with your team about that, but you're back today, you brought a friend, do you want to introduce your friend and explain to the listeners what this podcast is about?

Shermon Cruz: Yes before anything else, I would like to, of course, introduce Katindi Siwi, who is a, of course, a colleague in the network. I've met him before. Katindi at the Dubai Future Forum, and I think even before that, Katindi, right, like, we're having some exchanges, we've met in some webinars before that, but then, of course, it was my first time to see you during the Dubai Future Forum, and it was so wonderful to have a quick conversation with you there, and we've seen some alignment of interest.

Shermon Cruz: But if you could kindly introduce yourself, Katindi, that would be great as well.

Katindi Sivi: All right. Thank you very much. And thank you, Peter, for inviting me to this podcast. Shaman, thank you for the connection. Yes, as you've heard, my name is Katindi Sibi. I am a futurist. I've been practicing For the last 24 years and I am based in Nairobi, Kenya.

Katindi Sivi: My main interest in foresight was a from a project that we did in Kenya that was looking at the future of Kenya. But my interest grew and one of my main missions is to really look into foresight from an African perspective, what I call Afri futurism. And it is important for me as part of decolonizing the future.

Katindi Sivi: Thank you very much and back to you Shaman and Peter.

Peter Hayward: Great Sherman, so you, do you want to explain to the listeners, what's the story about the Global South Futures Community?

Shermon Cruz: Of course, yes you know, the Global South Futures community, I mean, the idea of, you know organizing was really prompted by two things of course, first is really, you know, some curiosities, you know, and interest in fact, about, you know, futures and foresight practice in, in the Global South of course, we've read, you know, several papers in the past and learned from Transcribed You know, the efforts of our colleagues from the South particularly, you know, a futures and foresight practice, and we've seen that this has emerged you know, in the last probably 3 to 5 years from many colleagues and friends from different parts of the world, and attending you know, a futures conferences as well on not just in the Dubai Future Forum, in fact, including the Asia Pacific Futures Network that there has been in an increasing and growing interest in scholarship when it comes to you know, decolonial futures and foresight practices, including sharing of cases, cases studies on what futures and foresight practice looks like, you know in, in the global South.

Shermon Cruz: So yeah. You know the curiosity into that. That's the first one. And second, you know, given the fact that you know there are many, you know, of futures and foresight practitioners who has been, you know, developing. Tools and methods of sharing cases, studies, publishing them, you know, gave us an idea of, you know, why don't we try to create some sort of a community that enables us to, you know, facilitate, you know, South South Forsyth exchange.

Shermon Cruz: And that was, the beginning of it, and then we started, you know, reconnecting with our friends and for several months last year you know, we started inviting and connecting and then we met in in one session just trying to figure out if we'll if this is something that we would like to do.

Shermon Cruz: What would it look like, right? Like, what would it mean for us to build a community, you know, that accentuates features and force that practice in the global South. And then in those conversations, in fact, many conversations, you know suddenly we started to wonder about, and, and, and probably question, you know what futures and foresight, in fact, really is not just in the context of knowledge, but also practice that, you know cannot just be limited, you know, foresight probably cannot just be limited or, or, or scope in, in the context of technique, right?

Shermon Cruz: Right. Is, is foresight just about techniques? Is it, is foresight just about the methodologies? Is foresight just about, you know, the present? Is future studies limited? Of course, as far as its history is concerned a an amplification of how the military sector in fact, you know use foresight.

Shermon Cruz: And for me, at least from my own point of view and perspective, is that of course, we've seen how UNESCO, which is, of course, I'm also a UNESCO chair, I know question probably the view that this features literacy just about, is it only focused, you know on the idea of utilizing it. Is it merely about, you know, the terminologies that we use and borrow from management and economics is features in foresight more than that.

Shermon Cruz: So those were the questions that I was asking. And in fact, when we had these conversations, everyone, in fact, was also asking that question. And beyond those conversations, suddenly we realized that. You know, what would foresight look like if we have a conversation about the future informed and driven at its core by, you know, nature, you know, can we expand and, you know, amplify diversity in foresight when we look into the context of language, spirituality, and, you know, the cultural and geographical diversities that we have around the world?

Shermon Cruz: What if we view and see this? Foresight in that context. Would it strengthen it? Would it would it enable us better to develop, you know, imagine a multiplicity of futures? Can it enable us, you know, to accentuate, you know, the necessity of imagining futures from heterogeneous perspective? Can we create a more inclusive future?

Shermon Cruz: Beyond techniques. So and then, of course, some of our friends would accentuate that you know definitely could. And if we create a community that, you know, provides an opportunity for Global South voices and perspectives and wisdom in futures and foresight and recognize and learn how to value and integrate this multiplicity of practices, you know, can we create A better way of shaping collective futures.

Shermon Cruz: So that was I think initially the idea was, but I think we can add more into that.

Katindi Sivi: Yeah, thank you. And I think that covers quite a lot. And when someone you asked me to be part of the group, I think one of the things having met you in Dubai in 2023 and having that was my first you know, attendance of the Dubai futures forum.

Katindi Sivi: One of the things I noticed is that even in that part of the world where I expected us to, for Foresight to be closer to everything you have described, whether it is beyond techniques into language, culture, geography, and that diversity, what I noticed in the forum was that it was very global north dominated.

Katindi Sivi: And so I felt That representation was very low. And so part of the reason why this was important for me was to ask myself, how can we get better representations of other voices in the global South into these conversations so that you know, those different narratives and the work that is going on there is actually captured.

Katindi Sivi: I think in my part of the world, one of the main reasons also. Is the fact that when, first of all, the practitioners of foresight are quite few and far apart, and therefore, the question became, how do we also have a platform where we can increase? Foresight can I say whether it's a profession or practice among many more people, but using a language and practices or, you know, languages and, you know, methods that other people in my part of the world can understand.

Katindi Sivi: So that inclusion was important for me in terms of ensuring that apart from just decolonizing. You know, the practice, you're also making it democratic in the sense that not few professionals have that you know, skill, but many people have that skill. And lastly, also, I think it's, it's the fact that predominantly foresight is used for very many things and in the global north, a lot of it is used for private sector work, you know, and in, in inherently in companies, but in my part of the world, we used it a lot for public interest.

Katindi Sivi: Work to just look at governance issues. And I guess my question became how? How do we also put that as an add on to, you know, the practice or the doping at conversations that are going on so that that adds on to the list of the many things that Sherman you have said about just the genesis of that conversation.

Katindi Sivi: And the idea was really to accommodate those unique perspectives from the global South and see how those can become. Thank you very much. But with the larger conversation that is going on around the world.

Peter Hayward: So Sherman, if I'm hearing it correctly, it's, it's trying to give both voice and really take the inherent, unique perspectives of the Global South members and, and interest and to try and you're not trying to standardize, you're not trying to homogenize, you're trying to cultivate And utilize the diversity of the different approaches in the South.

Peter Hayward: Is that right?

Shermon Cruz: Oh, yes. Definitely. Right. Thank you for putting you know, capturing that, it, it in that way. It's you know it's, it's really like, you know, trying to figure out ways by which we can in fact reframe, you know, how we, you know interpret and, and define future studies and, and foresight.

Shermon Cruz: But then, of course, one of the imperatives as well that I saw, some compelling, you know, reasons for, you know, to set up, you know, and organize a global South Features community, which is a community really in orientation, is, you know Many of our colleagues also accentuated, you know, the issue of a justice oriented perspective.

Shermon Cruz: I know when it comes to imagining you know, alternative futures. Because if we don't perhaps deconstruct and question the context by which, you know, we do. Use and utilize foresight, we might end up amplifying, you know, the things that we disown when it comes to, you know, the narratives that we make and envision as, as a future.

Shermon Cruz: In fact, I read in one of literature that was published I think in Africa, you know, some of our friends there. Is that given the fact that we're all using features, tools and methods that are primarily invented and developed by the North and the West and using these tools and methods in, you know, global South organization, whether they're public or corporate sector, is that we might probably or perhaps unconsciously in amplifying the narratives that are perhaps possibly colonial and, you know and then.

Shermon Cruz: Mm hmm. You know silencing, you know, unconsciously the narratives that we have, which is particularly if you come to think about it, you try to read some, you know, reviews and the literature, you know studies by our colleagues as well is primarily when you think about probably, of course, in Asia in particular, is you know, the cultural, right, the spiritual, the language dimensions of futures, right.

Shermon Cruz: So and, and with that, you know, if you have a community that discuss these things, then you can, in fact, you know, expand opportunities for people around the world, you know to, to, you know, strengthen their ways by which they can communicate. Communicate, facilitate, exchange, and share, you know, practice and learnings and wisdom, you know in the global South.

Peter Hayward: Yeah, that's very, it's very ambitious stuff, Sherman. I'm fascinated as to what your priorities and initiatives are to start a venture like you, or to basically drive a community the way that you've spoken of it.

Shermon Cruz: Yes. Yes. In, in fact, it is, it is, it is ambitious, right? Like but, but then again, you know in, in, in the many conversations that we have together with our co-founders, I think we have like around 20 to 20 co-founders from all around the world, right?

Shermon Cruz: To, to set up the global south features community is one of the things, you know, compelling things that emerge about what we can do on Monday morning is you know of course future studies, like the knowledge aspect of it. Right, like if we can share the epistemologies that you have and how for example, your indigenous knowledge, you know, or probably perhaps ancestral studies could offer on how, you know, our ancestry or our own indigenous knowledge communities, you know see or interpret what the future is for them, you know, can, is, could be some sort of a beginning when it comes to building knowledge You know, for futures in the global south.

Shermon Cruz: And in fact, that's what I did, at least for my own community Peter and Katindi, when I tried to explore, at least linguistically, what future is for them when you translate it in the local language. is that we would eventually find out that, as far as my ancestor is concerned, is that, you know, they see the future, one, as an experiential verb, right?

Shermon Cruz: And if it is an experiential verb, what does it imply? Both implicitly, explicitly, apparently what I learned is that it explicitly, you know, emphasized the value of relationality You know, in imagining alternative futures, right? Like, while data are, of course, we know this, Peter Catindi, right? Like at least from a Western perspective, that you know, we've been saying this, that the future is in fact some sort of you know unpredictable, right?

Shermon Cruz: That it is a blank slate, right? And there's no such thing as a future data, and therefore you cannot predict the future. However, what I learned from The learning and studying, you know my, my, my linguistics communities, you know knowledge about the future is that it is not, the future is not a blank slate, but it is a continuity of ancestral experience.

Peter Hayward: In

Shermon Cruz: a way that data isn't just, data is not just reality alone, but relationality is in fact real. So if you try to study you know, futures from the perspective of relationality, it tells us That for them, as far as my linguistic community is concerned, is that, you know the, the, the feature is, is, is something that you must learn how to respect and it is skin,

Shermon Cruz: right? So if then, of course, with that in mind, or perhaps provocation, you know, you know, this is something that I need to really study as well.

Katindi Sivi: Yeah. And just to add on to that, I think. One of the things that we were clear about is that because we are working in silos, particularly many of the foresight practitioners in the Global South, what then happens is that we're not learning from each other and we don't even know what exists.

Katindi Sivi: So one of the biggest priorities for the community was to document. Work and collect that work, at least in one place, just to know what's going on and what we can learn from one another. And I really like the aspect that Shaman, you're bringing along about the differences in just the conceptualization of the future.

Katindi Sivi: So, for example, in my part of the world, in addition to, you know, the issues of relationships and the issue of experience. There's the understanding of, you know, long term future is something that doesn't exist because it is actually out of our hands. And what I mean by that is that in the African culture.

Katindi Sivi: There's a lot of reference to ancestors, which is in the past and the experiences to that and also the present because that's what we know and we have now. But basically a long term future is, is given to, you know, the spirits to, you know, it's, it's, it's not in our hands. And so that relationship with a long term future is not there.

Katindi Sivi: And yet in the modern world, if you want to plan and think about. you know, how does, you know, disruption happen? How do you navigate that? You have to reconcile this predominant culture versus, you know this concept of time and negotiate that to ask ourselves what tools can we use to be able to navigate, you know you know, the practice of foresight.

Katindi Sivi: The other thing that has been very interesting for me, for example, to understand in my culture is the fact that, you know We are also in the equator. And so we don't experience a lot of, you know, extreme weather changes. And so people really don't have, you know, that relationship with time as you know, some days are shorter, other days are longer.

Katindi Sivi: And because of that relative sameness of time, we basically say there's no hurry in Africa because there's no urgency to plan for extreme weather changes. Of course, one can argue that in modern world and with all the weather. You know global, you know changes, then it's, it's that's happening, but culturally the fact that, you know, whether the weather is constant, then that relationship with time is also such that there isn't that much urgency to plan for, for discontinuity.

Katindi Sivi: And the third one is very interesting is the fact that time, a lot of people, a lot of relationship with longterm futures thinking is that it's circumstantial. And what we mean by that is that, because a lot of people are living from hand to mouth, then when you tell people to think about a long term future, they really will be asking you, how can I think about a year from today or two years from today, when I don't even know what I'm going to have for dinner?

Katindi Sivi: And so, you know, reconciling that and having conversations about systems thinking, how do we resolve some of these challenges? As we take care of the immediate, how do we, you know use foresight to work with systems and structures to plan and to fortify a future that is beneficial for all of us. And so that, that, that basic understanding of just foresight from those different perspectives was so important for us, because that's something that doesn't often come out in, in when we talk about or when we.

Katindi Sivi: sort of like box foresight in terms of, you know, techniques and methodologies. And, and obviously then learning from each other was a big priority, but also bringing this narratives then to be part of the global conversations about what is foresight? What does foresight entail? So that it is not a group of people that are defining what the future should look like, but.

Katindi Sivi: All of us are, you know, included in that definition or in that conversation based on the different places that we come from.

Peter Hayward: Back to you, Peter. It's interesting. I just, I was struck as listening to what you've both been saying, and I think it was Sherman who said it, this idea that Do we respect the future?

Peter Hayward: Do we respect the ancestors who didn't create the future, but certainly influenced it, certainly shaped it, certainly part of the future that's coming is their legacy to us, and I'll put this question to both of you, that often when I do it, and I'm certainly from the Western canon, that we talk about our responsibility to the future generations, the people who come after us.

Peter Hayward: But you're turning it to say that there's also a responsibility and a respect for the people who came before us.

Shermon Cruz: Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree with that. In fact, here in, in, in, in the Philippines, you know, we have this, you know, proverb, you know, for thousands of years, it says that,

Shermon Cruz: So what does that imply is that, or it tells us, is that the future exists within a continuity of experience, that it has a memory of the past, and the future cannot be without the past. Right? And they've been saying this all along for thousands of years. So imagine, right, like, by acknowledging, for example, you know, future studies, or You know, that it is entangled and interconnected with the past, it also tells us, you know, that it is recursive, right?

Shermon Cruz: That it is influenced by language, culture, and heritage, that it is nested in kin. So if, if, if, you know, you know, try to place future studies or foresight practice in the context, in that context, and it brings up the question of, you know, what kind of relationship would you want to have with the future?

Shermon Cruz: Is it a relationship of conquest or is it a relationship of reverence?

Peter Hayward: So,

Shermon Cruz: it also tells us that if the future is informed and driven by relationality, it brings in the view that the future is a living entity. They're not just in a figment of imagination, right? They're not just concepts. The future is something that needs to be classified or mastered.

Shermon Cruz: All right, because we want to master the tools and the methods, right? So in, in the process of mastering, you know, these tools and methods that probably we might end up, you know, developing that behavior of conquering it, right? Like utilizing, extracting something from which is unknown. So if we imagine or practice foresight beyond the idea of mastery, And of course, in fact, it is emerging now in, in, in both the North and the South, Peter, right, Peter that for example, in, in, in approaches like gamification, right, in participatory approaches, in fact accentuates you know, a foresight process that is playful, artistic, and experiential.

Shermon Cruz: And I've seen also in Australia, you know, some concepts and narratives of regeneration, right, as an essential aspect by which it can inform us to reconcile, you know, with our past, you know, with the present and the forces of change. Are shaping how we perceive and understand in the future. And with that in mind, what I learned, really, and the kind of exploration and conversation that we're having in the global South is that there are no future absolutes.

Shermon Cruz: All right. Yes.

Katindi Sivi: Yeah. Yeah. I really, really, really like your input about, you know, reverence. And I was going to say that a lot of the global north conceptualization of the connection between the past, present and future is very linear. But from where I come from in many global South communities, that connection is much more cyclical so that that relationship is almost reviving in the future as it is in the past.

Katindi Sivi: So think about a wheel that is moving. So that that connection then emphasizes that interplay between ancestors, the living, and those that are yet to be born. And it almost feels like those that are yet to be born are in connection with the ancestors, and that the living are sort of like playing that connecting part so that when, for example, you get, you, you get a child or and, and, and thinking about future generations now is that the connection comes, for example, with the naming of the children so that you, you complete the cycle and start again.

Katindi Sivi: And, and that cycle then means that, for example, when you're thinking about the future, you're connecting it to. What is the lineage? Where do we come from? How do we respect that ancestry? And as we continue in the future, so that in a sense, you're almost reviving the past into the present. And the present is into the present and the future.

Katindi Sivi: And you know that we will continue. So it's not it's not linear. And that part of reverence is so important. So that is that continuation. And then that means that as you think about the future, then you are. In a sense, reviving the past as well, and that connection is so, so, so important.

Peter Hayward: And I suppose another aspect that doesn't get spoken of directly a lot in the West is the, the idea that in the future we're forgiven for things that happened in the past.

Peter Hayward: Both this aspect of justice that was not received in the past can be sought in the future. And also the idea that things that we may have done or, or been in the lineage of, we can seek some redemption or forgiveness from the future.

Shermon Cruz: Oh yes, in fact, you know, that's, that's pretty quite evident right now. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I've had some conversation as well with some with some friends and it's, it's. You know, it's, it's pretty quite like, you know, this, this are worldviews, right? Like, you know, and how, you know, civilized agents or a particular group of community or societies, you know, value the past, right?

Shermon Cruz: Like whatever that might be. And I, I think that that is, we need to have that kind of conversation. And you know, several days ago, I've had a conversation. About, you know, the relationship between the river and the city, you know, with a professor researcher at Swinburne University, Dr. Delato, and she shared about, you know, you know, the current initiative that Melbourne City is trying to do, which is, you know, several years ago, you know, have acknowledged, you know, its river as a living entity.

Shermon Cruz: Right. And when you do that acknowledging the rivers and living entities just changes the way you see things, right? Really? And by acknowledging that as a living entity, it also, you know, presents an opportunity for us to reflect back and see the way we've related to it. You know, in the modern period, right, like in the way science is applied and how we build our, you know, urbanizations and our cities that have practically neglected the rivers and the indigenous people that consider, you know, this bodies of water as, you know as ancestral memories, which are important to culture and practice leads you to, you know an opportunity to figure out how, you know, a conversation about reconciliation, right? Which is in fact is also evident in a conversation about, you know, decolonization, right? As we've seen this in the past, of course you know, from our friends and scholars and proponents from Latin America that have invented, you know, introduced, coined the word decoloniality as had been what defined it as dismantling, you know colonization and its legacy seen, of course, from a political perspective, right?

Shermon Cruz: But then, of course over the years, in, in, in, in the previous decade, is that while, you know you know, it depends on the kind of political agenda that you have, right? You know, it depends where you are, because decoloniality or decolonization is not actually, like, cannot be defined in one definition.

Shermon Cruz: And, and, and the, the, the way I saw it is that it is, you know, really, like, defined in a political context. Which is you know what you know, argumentative and but then, of course, for some of our friends and communities is that, you know, it goes beyond the idea of dismantling it, but trying to figure out how you can, in fact, like, Reconcile these identities now because, you know, everything has happened and that you need to figure out how to make sense of it.

Shermon Cruz: So in, in the context of forgiveness or acknowledging, you know whatever might have happened in the past, I think is, it's important, you know, as far as, you know the communities that have been, you know, colonized in, in, in the past. And I think it's a matter of really like having a conversation in space just to figure out this together.

Shermon Cruz: Yeah, yeah.

Katindi Sivi: And I think there's an acknowledgement that there's a lot of harm that has been done by systems like colonization, like slavery, like the resource exploitation, you know, the systemic oppression that we've seen in different ways. And so and one then seeks to ask, how has that affected people moving forward?

Katindi Sivi: How does it continue to imprison people? And therefore, what are the, some of the things you can draw out of, for example, you know, indigenous value systems so that you're able to bring in a new mindset and a new shift in the way people think and, and feel and collectively move forward. So, for example, in a storytelling session we had with some philanthropists, somebody mentioned that, you know, in African culture, there were no prisons.

Katindi Sivi: And not because there were no wrongdoers, but because you know, putting people in solitary confinement only made them, you know, in society more, would have made them in society more, you know, alienated. And yet the values and the culture of the society is to integrate people, is to bring in, you know, the perspective of restoration, collective well being, you know that idea of, of, of healing.

Katindi Sivi: And you cannot do that when you segregate people and, you know, label them a certain way. And so they had systems and structures of how to Integrate people in communities so that moving forward, people then can work in harmony with one another. And if you look at, for example, the Rwanda case after the genocide, the, the, the court system that would have been, you know, prescribed to charge the wrongdoers would have been exactly that, you know, let's jail these people that killed.

Katindi Sivi: But how many people would you have jailed? Because it was pretty much. Over half of the society, and therefore this idea of the Gashasha courts and others to ask ourselves, how do we come, how do we have, do we have people, you know, confess their sins and, you know, try and have a healing process that integrates them back to society.

Katindi Sivi: The Rwanda people so that that is what would have moved them forward and, and, I mean, and you compare that, for example, with South Africa and you realize that it's, you know, particularly where, you know, modern justice systems were, were applied, not that they didn't work, but you find that there's quite a lot of.

Katindi Sivi: You know, there hasn't been that healing as such, and I'm not saying that Rwanda is perfect, but there's that element of people having to come to terms with, look, this is what happened, but we have to live together as a society, and so how do we work as much as possible to integrate one another? And so moving forward, and how do we then integrate those kinds of values within our society so that people are not excluded?

Katindi Sivi: And people are not labeled, but then we heal and move forward together. And so that's just an example of how that kind of retribution and restorative justice played out in that sense to be able to integrate those values in a foresight perspective.

Peter Hayward: So how does a truly decolonized future Look or feel to you.

Shermon Cruz: Yeah, that's a good question. You know from, from my perspective is that, you know, the future is, is the colonize when we emphasize, you know, you know, certain worldviews and values in the way we do, for example, futures and foresight studies or practice. Of course, what we see right now is that, you know, the core when it comes to future studies and foresight, it's really like.

Shermon Cruz: Technocentric. The future is, you know is really about utility, right? Like, okay, the function of it, you know, the use of it, you know extracting some from something that is unknowable and apply it in the present, you know, to improve efficiency, productivity, and those things that we always, you know, get to use.

Shermon Cruz: You know, to see the value of foresight in innovation strategies, planning, and among others, and decision making. So, you know, several things, two or three things, you know, that makes foresight practice decolonial. One is when you highlight and emphasize relationality and care in the practice of foresight, right?

Shermon Cruz: If the future is a living and a relational process. What kind of conversations and approaches would you create to emphasize the value of relationality and care? Right, like reciprocal care, Peter, right? Because it's not just about utility. You know, we're human beings, right? You know, the future is, you know, defined and determined by the relationship that we have as human beings and with nature.

Shermon Cruz: When animals and plants with the planet, right? How do we relate to it? You know, what's our relationship with it? That's one, relationality and care. Another one, probably, is that, you know when you try to you know, here's the thing, as far as indigenous people is concerned, And I think I've seen this as well from a research conducted by Naomi Tolentieri that was published in Environmental Science and Policy, wherein they tried to look into, you know, global South futures and foresight and decoloniality as well, is that as far as they are concerned, you know in the framework, in the conceptualization that they had was that there are roots of multiple futures.

Shermon Cruz: Or, or multiple past, right, as mentioned by Katindya a moment ago. So if, if you have some roots of multiple past, whether these are distorted past, erased knowledge, uncertain past, undecorated past, unknown past, you know brings in, you know, branches of multiple presence. And if there are branches of multiple presence, you know, could emerge, you know, different stems of, of multiple futures, right?

Shermon Cruz: So it's not just about pluralism anymore Peter. It's really like the heterogeneity. In, in the pluralism that we, we do, it's not just about third, fourth futures, or, you know, alternative and preferable, right? It's, it's, it's more than that. And, and with that in mind, you know the colonial futures, you know presents a view that the future is transient, right?

Shermon Cruz: It's not permanent nor absolute, you know, and the, and, and, If you try to accentuate, you know, a past, the past in the way we imagine alternative or preferable future, whatever you might call it, including ridiculous or preposterous future, you know, the untamed future is that, you know, the future might already be latent in the past waiting to be reactivated.

Katindi Sivi: In addition to relationships and to care, one of the things that you know, decolonial futures emphasizes is that everyone then has a place in shaping the future.

Katindi Sivi: So in essence, what we are saying is that the future is not. In the hands of the futurist, you know, curating a certain futures exercise in that, you know, the future belongs to all of us. And that no one feels displaced or silenced and therefore marginal voices have to come to the forefront and, and, and everyone's voice has to be heard.

Katindi Sivi: I think there's also quite an important a second one is also a profound connection to, you know, Nature. So what someone alluded to earlier about, you know, the earth, you know, the rivers and so that connection with nature so that we're not exploiting, but having some level of respect and regenerative, you know, a regenerative relationship is so important.

Katindi Sivi: Then there's, of course, what we have been talking about, healing the past, and being able to basically lift off, you know those unjust systems, so that we can, moving forward, include everyone, and ensure that there is but also forgiveness, this justice, this restoration, that is important as well in terms of just looking at what, you know, decolonized futures feels and looks like,

Katindi Sivi: In creating those futures, and then that means that it doesn't belong to the futurist curating a futures exercise, but everyone is involved. And therefore, even the marginal voices are part and parcel of building and being part of the future. The second one I mentioned was a profound connection, and it's what we said earlier about.

Katindi Sivi: You know, looking at nature as a living system and therefore having that connection between ourselves as humans and, you know the environment so that we can have a regenerative approach to obviously our relationship with nature, which I think is something that has come out a lot in in the recent, you know Global warming and other conversations that have been held.

Katindi Sivi: I think the third one for me is just what we ended up talking about justice systems and making sure that we heal the past so that it doesn't show up in the future. And therefore. You know being able to move on having dealt with that past trauma and that having to be replaced with empowerment and hope into the future.

Katindi Sivi: Those are a few of the ones I can say that are important when anyone thinks about the decolonial future.

Peter Hayward: Very interesting. We're getting towards the end of our time and I want the two of you to let the listeners know how people that are interested in being involved in the the community, or even just tracking what the community's doing, how can they do that?

Shermon Cruz: Oh, yes. So, so they can, you know, we have several, you know, initiatives, you know, in the last three months, four months, particularly where in, you know, we create opportunities in spaces where the Global South Foresight practitioners from around the world can share. You know, their views about, you know, the colonial foresight and the future of Global South Futures and foresight practice are all around the world.

Shermon Cruz: You know, we've been doing that and we expect to have another session probably in the first quarter of the year. They can participate, you know, to, you know, the collaborative activities and projects that we do. And these are, you know, shared in on our LinkedIn page, which is the Global South Futures community.

Shermon Cruz: Through our Facebook page and you know, the resources that we upload on, on YouTube, and of course, through the mailing list that we WhatsApp group. So that's one. And of course, you know, our co founders as well are initiating several events and initiatives particularly, you know, our friends from Latin America were in, they have started, you know, organizing a, And network of you know the colonial researchers and practitioners all around the world.

Shermon Cruz: They're going to launch their initiative in the next several weeks probably this month. They already have, you know, those concept notes in place and you know participants and volunteers. Which is the end purpose is, you know to give everyone who is on our network to contribute to the discussion, the building of knowledge resources including publications.

Shermon Cruz: And of course, they can also participate if, well, you know, they wish to advocate, you know, for cultural, methodological diversity. In in foresight practice. Yeah, you might want to add something else. Yes,

Katindi Sivi: I think just to mention that and to emphasize that we are just starting. So we haven't fully on boarded people and we've been just looking to start a website so that we make the process easier.

Katindi Sivi: But one way is to follow the LinkedIn page, because at least that's going. But the other way is to as you join in to figure out also, because we recognize that the different regions are also very different. So while Latin America is consolidating, other regions as well are consolidating, so there's an African chapter, an Asian chapter, so that we are also allowing people to have very specific, very contextual and specific conversations about their context, but also coming together to consolidate.

Katindi Sivi: Our learnings. And so that's one way in which another way in which people can plug in. And I think we can find out if they send a private message to the LinkedIn, they should be able to get direction on who to get in touch with in the original chapters. Back to you, Peter.

Peter Hayward: Well, congratulations to the two well not just all, not just the two of you, but thank you for coming on FuturePod and telling the listeners about this very, very exciting and overdue community, both overdue in terms of representing the Global South and also overdue in representing Voices and perspectives that have, I won't say been silenced, but they've certainly been marginalised.

Peter Hayward: So I am very glad to have, to hear of what you're doing and I wish all you all the best in the futures that you're creating.

Shermon Cruz: Yes, again, thank you very much, Peter, you know, for giving us the opportunity to have a conversation with you. And of course, you know, my friend Katimby for sharing you know, what we have as far as the community is concerned. But then probably, you know to capture what we've possibly, you know, what we've discussed so far, you know this afternoon is that, you know, the present, like the future cannot be without the past.

Shermon Cruz: You know this is what it means to decolonize the future, if I may say, you know, and decolonizing the future is learning how to shift radically from the view of utility, you know what we need to emphasize now you know, especially for future generations is a profound significance of relationality in the way we see, perceive the future and, you know, just going beyond, you know, creating and thingifying the future is you know the need to build better relationships.

Shermon Cruz: In the way we imagine and, you know, build it.

Katindi Sivi: Well, just thank you very much for inviting me to this podcast. It's been a pleasure.

Peter Hayward: Thanks to Shermon and Katindi and if you are interested in contributing to the Global South Futures Community then you will find their contact details on their website show notes. FuturePod is a not-for-profit venture. We exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you would like to support the Pod then please check out the Patreon link on our website. I'm Peter Hayward thanks for joining me today. Till next time

EP 216: FuturePod - Global South Futures - Shermon Cruz and Katindi Sivi

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