A conversation with Samista Jugwanth who is an engineer and technical director at Zutari in South Africa.

Interviewed by: Peter Hayward

Bio

Samista Jugwanth is a Professional Engineer, a Technical director at Zutari and a Futurist - merging design-led thinking and strategic foresight methodologies into traditional engineering design to maximise positive environmental, social, and economic impact in projects.

Transcript

Peter Hayward: Engineers build stuff, valuable stuff, and lots of it is around for a long time. You could say the build much the future. But is the idea of the future something that is used by engineers?

Erik Overland: Engineering methods are very good and they have centuries of thinking behind it but the projects that we do, they have these exceptionally long design lives. And they also require a heavy amount of resources which means that especially in resource constrained environments anytime you put something out, you need to make sure that it's gonna last for decades and it's gonna remain relevant for decades. Strategic foresight could help us plan the projects to make them adaptable so that things can happen. The infrastructure we design can meet the requirements of the future because it was designed with the idea that the future is flexible.

Peter Hayward: That is my guest today on FuturePod Samista Jugwanth who is a professionally registered engineer and technical director at Zutari in South Africa.

Peter Hayward: Welcome to Future Pod Samista.

Samista Jugwanth: Thanks Peter.

Peter Hayward: Our first question, Samista, that we start all our guests with is their story. So, what is Samista’s story? How did you get involved with the Futures and Foresight community?

Samista Jugwanth: I'm an Engineer by trade. I have about 15 to 16 years of experience. My main specialisation in engineering is in the design and implementation of water infrastructure. Since I started, I have always loved what I did. There's a lot of excitement and pride in being able to see the fruits of your labour delivered and in adding value to your community.

I've had the good fortune to work on some amazing projects - iconic projects in my hometown, specifically the main stadium and the airport. Every time you drive past it you get this very warm feeling in your stomach. Like I was part of that, a small part, but part of it.

In 2019, I was given the opportunity to go to America on an exchange program where I interned at a company called Autodesk, which produces engineering related software. At Autodesk I met a group of people called futurists, which sounded like a science fiction movie. They also referred to themselves as storytellers.

And I think one of the gentlemen had a very senior position before at ILM Studios on the Star Wars franchise. It sounded really exciting, really creative. They told me what they did, and it stuck in my head, but I don't think I saw the full value while I was there. When I got back home, we were in COVID and I had a lot of time in between my work and being at home to consolidate a lot of the lessons that I had learnt.

And it hit me, that foresight added something to the work that I was doing - in the sense that engineering methods are very good, and they have centuries of thinking behind it, but the projects that we do, they have these exceptionally long design lives, and they also require a heavy amount of resources, which means that, especially in resource constrained environments, anytime you put something out, you need to make sure that it's going to last for decades and it's going to remain relevant for decades.

And that was actually a challenge that we were having. From the time you get a project to the time you get it constructed, it's almost five years. And at the end of the five years, you already see how much of change has happened. And it hit me that strategic foresight could help us plan the projects to make them adaptable - so that things can happen, and yet the infrastructure we design can meet the requirements of the future because it was designed with the idea that the future is flexible.

And from then I started doing more research on the field. I had a scholarship by the IFTF to do Foresight Essentials, and from there I found out about the APF (the Association of Professional Futures) and they had this amazing program called the Emerging Fellowship, which I applied for, and I was given the opportunity to be part of that.

Peter Hayward: So, who were some of the people that like, obviously we'll get to the APF and the fellowship, but were there kind of other people on the way through who were helpful or inspirational for you?

Samista Jugwanth: I think maybe the first person would be the futurist I met at Autodesk, it was a gentleman called Hilmar Koch. He described himself as a storyteller, and I remember he loved what he did so much, and he was so excited about it, that I think that enthusiasm rubbed off on me.

And then. I think the next person I probably would want to mention is Patricia Lustig. She's also from an engineering background and she's also been applying foresight from that perspective. She has a very no-nonsense way of looking at things very pragmatically in a space that might be not so pragmatic. I think her perspective of foresight maybe a bridge between where I come from and the foresight space as a whole.

Peter Hayward: Yeah. I met, Patricia's had, I've probably two or three podcasts on future Pod. I've had the, I've had a chance to work with Patricia on the executive of the of the APF a long time ago.

And then with her books that she writes with. Yeah, Gill, of course I've interviewed them about their books and yes, Patricia is very much around trying to help decision makers make better decisions about the future, which sounds like it's a very synergistic space to what you are talking about.

Because decision makers for infrastructure have got a dickens of a time trying to both. Build something that has, when you've only got knowledge of the past and present, but its usefulness or not, is going to be measured by the future.

Samista Jugwanth: Yes. I think that's what I love about what she does - it really is about the output. Because with strategic foresight, you have the risk of sometimes being a little bit too up in the air. You can think about all of these possibilities, but I think what I love about the work she does, is that it helps create methods for people to route it into action so that you can actually influence the future.

Peter Hayward: So, I'm interested, does this. If we start to lean into the second question around methods or approaches that are central to how you do it. You have said to me that you’re, you are really passionate about this intersection of how foresight tools and approaches can really be helped with the infrastructure projects that are heavy planning processes.

Can you talk some more about the really most useful things - because there'll be people listening to this podcast who actually will have either a consultant brief or work for organizations where they're often talking to decision makers who come from an engineering background. So how do you explain the use of foresight to people who come from a, pretty much a quantitative data-based approach to how they plan?

Samista Jugwanth: I think. Okay, so from my experience, there's been two groups of people. You have the group of people who are excited by this, and then you have the group of people who to them it sounds like you're bringing a science fiction movie into very serious work. And so, the trick is - I tend to explain it using words of how I understand it, and I also tend to stay away from some of the more flowery terms like drivers and signals of change and artifacts of the future.

I think the first point I start is by explaining to someone using the futures cone. I think that image is just one of the most impactful ones. The idea that where we are right now is a single point of truth. It's a reality. There might be different perspectives of what that is, but it's a single point.

And as we go forward, the decisions we make and the decisions other people make, create multiple possible futures. And as a time increases, the variability of those futures gets wider.

Peter Hayward: Yeah.

Samista Jugwanth: And if we had to design something, we're designing for the most probable. We take what we see now, and we apply it to the future with the few variables changing, like maybe the obvious ones, like population growth, and the consumption.

But we don't take into consideration that the future might look very different to where we are now. And I explain to them that what if we actually spend time thinking what those futures could be - so we can identify the risks, and we can then put mitigations in place, and we can identify the opportunities and then we can anticipate those and work towards it - so we can grow in the direction that we want.

So basically, identifying the preferable future. It's all the strategic foresight concepts but in very practical terms. We don't have to design the infrastructure for every possibility, but by thinking about it and applying our minds, we are creating a roadmap, so we know how to react as we go.

Peter Hayward: Yeah, and I think when Joe Voros, who, designed the futures cone methodology based off the work of Roy Mara - when Joe very consciously introduced the language that we used to talk about, so the first point where we stray off the single point, the projected future, the kind of, historic future is, of course, this is this notion of probability. So what do we know is probable, and probable is a kind of nice halfway house for people who are quantitative thinkers. They'll actually go, so they can give it a percentage, or they can give it a weighting.

And if that's all you can do with someone, that's better than nothing. If you can then take them a little bit broader and start pushing the word of possibility. And of course, as Joe goes all the way to preposterous, which you might use for your audience. But of course, and then as you say the other, the fourth P and the most important P, is of all the things that are possible or probable, but what do we prefer and where do we want to go and what do we want our technology to look like and what do we want it to be? Is this a really important thing of preference?

Samista Jugwanth: Yeah, it's amazing how much of value these tools have actually brought to the projects I've been working on. For example, one of them, a municipality wanted to do a water demand model, for going forward.

The case study of the city of Cape Town, approaching D-Day is something that's, I think, globally famous. And so going forward, they wanted to have a better idea of what that demand projection might be. When you do what demand, just for example, there are mainly three or four variables. It's how many people you have, how fast they're going grow, is their consumption going change?

And you put into a simple formula, and you get an answer. What we did is that we applied the STEEP Framework to try and brainstorm what are the other, and I didn't call them drivers, I called them variables. We ended up with over a hundred different variables that could affect water demand. From vandalism to politics, to unrest, to maintenance of the city's infrastructure, to community farming, to improved water behaviour practices. It was exceptional how much more richness we now had. And then we used the Futures Wheel and Consequence Mapping and Significance, in order to break it down into to a shortlist.

We ended up with basically four scenarios, which we were able to model. And so now the city has a model, that for the different areas, they can track what demand as an envelope of possibilities. There's one where everything is growing, people are thriving economically, they're using more. There's one where there's a collapse, where people are going off grid. There's one where in, in the Four Futures Archetype, where we have the constraint archetype. In this we interpret it as people actually having better water behaviour - so it does curb water consumption, but only to a certain extent. We have the transformation future, which was privatisation. And as you can imagine now when the city does its infrastructure planning, they have an idea of what they need in case these different scenarios actually happen.

So the second project was also. It was such an amazing tool in actually delivering a product that the client would use. It was for a very famous national bank in our country, and they wanted to do a water management strategy, but in the brief they gave us, it had every sort of buzz buzzword you could possibly imagine.

Sustainability, resiliency, zero water, which mathematically doesn't exist and a whole bunch of others. And the problem with any strategy, if you don't have a clear vision of where you're going, you're not going to get something you can implement. And so without telling them we were doing visioning or back casting, we asked them:

What would you be very proud of seeing in 10 years’ time if you came to your branches? What would you be very fearful of seeing if you came in five years? So when I do visioning as well, I generally take long term for positive futures because I think people can hope easier when they think it's much further from now.

And the fears I generally have shorter time periods because I feel people somehow tend to lean towards negative futures being closer. And anything good's requiring a lot more time. So I use those two timeframes to, try and figure out what's good, what's bad, because from what's bad you can infer what is that preferable future looking and once we have that, we could put in together, do the back costing exercise to find out, to have this preferable future. What are the steps we need to follow? And at the end of the day, we gave them an action plan.

And I'm used to doing strategy documents and generally a lot of them unfortunately, end up on someone's shelf gathering dust. Within the first year of this document being given to them, they had already completed a third of the actions across 17 of their massive, sort of what they call, campuses because it's collections of buildings. And the only thing I can see what was different was here - we actually had a vision that each one of them had bought into.

They knew what they were doing because they bought into that vision. It was their vision. And so strategic foresight created that, that impetus. But once again, I didn't call it strategic foresight. I didn't use terms like preferable future or visioning or back casting.

Another really good example is, I'm not sure if you're used to the term water reuse. It's where we treat wastewater for potable drinking and where we're heading in a lot of places in the world. But it has a very negative stigma because of, you're drinking poo water. The other thing that's really important about this is that you need a very strong, regulatory side to it because you have to protect your catchment of where you're collecting this because you don't want antibiotics and hormones and all of these sort of things. And also, you have to have enough infrastructure in place to, to look after safety of people drinking this water source.

We did the Past, Present, Future exercise with the municipal workers and their planning and the design teams. So, we had operations planning, design, we had academics. And the reason why we did that is because we wanted to actually find what worked in the past that can be pulled forward. What currently worked, what didn't work, what currently isn't working so that we can mitigate against it.

And by doing that, put together a plan that assures people against the risk of something that has so much of negative perceptions attached to it already.

I've used scenario planning on projects, so we have to do concept designs, infrastructure, or even in master planning of the different options that we can have.

I love using scenario planning as a way of testing how those options would work, because if you can test those concepts against the possibilities of the future, you can future-proof them. And you can also actually guide them into moving into a place where you're anticipating growth. Strategic foresight has just been amazing in adding it to these projects.

Peter Hayward: It sounds it, so I congratulations on your, on how on how readily you've adapted and adopted the kind of things that are. The lingua franca of doing futures and foresight work. I'm interested. The next question is, what are the things happening around you that you are paying particular attention to?

In other words, the emerging futures around you that either are exciting you about the way things are going

Or the other way concerning you about, but what you know of all the emerging futures around you. Which ones are you paying particular attention to and why?

Samista Jugwanth: So that's an interesting question because I think the rate at which things are happening in the world it's so volatile and there's so many interesting things happening.

If you turn on the news every day, from politics to something like - you know they are cloning dire wolves so that an animal can be brought 10,000 years out of extinction. The possibilities of our future are massive, right? Hotels on different planets, flying cars. But I think the futures that maybe keeps playing in the back of my head are the very unsexy ones we have.

We have so many amazing things ahead of us, and yet there are some very basic things that we still don't have in the world. About a third of the world's population doesn't have access to clean water, half of them doesn't have access to safe sanitation. There are 500 million people in the world who currently openly defecate.

There are 500,000 children a year dying of diarrhea related diseases because of poor sanitation. These are very basic, very now problems. And they're not being solved because there are so many challenges against them. We could go into that. That's a whole other story.

But right now, in order to make the SDG goals, we're running an impossible race. We have to walk almost 10 to 12 times more effectively than we did to meet these goals, which is impossible. And what I would be interested in is how futures or futures thinking can actually be applied to solve the basic challenges.

Because they sound very simple, but they're very wicked. And I think you need something like this, which is unconventional and creative, to come up with the solutions to solve these problems that we haven't been able to solve for centuries.

Peter Hayward: It is interesting you talk about that because of course full well that one of the upshots of both the elections in America, but also what happened in England was that we saw a dramatic winding back of government funding for international development.

It's interesting you talk about. Subjects that have been on the agenda of international development for as long as there has been international development. I'm not saying international development has not done some wonderful things. It has, but it also has not been able to deal with these fundamental quality of life issues.

Maybe one of the unforeseen consequences of the defunding of international aid in America and England. Maybe it creates the need for different ways to tackle these things.

Samista Jugwanth: So I was speaking to a friend who works in the NGO space in the sector, and one of the greatest stumbling blocks she mentioned was that there's a statistic that around 70% of the infrastructure they put in within two years - it's not functional. So it's almost you're fighting a losing battle.

You're putting all of this in, but after two years, only 30% of it's there because of lack of maintenance, vandalism, theft. And so, one of the reasons why it's failing is because there's not this synergy between community, economy and environment. We have been solving these problems using very traditional methods where we look at it as a technological problem or a political problem or a funding problem - but we don't actually look at it as a system.

For people to maintain something, they have to see value in it. Also, for it to be maintained, there has to be some sort of continuous financial and time availability in order to do that. If there is a value, people will protect it against vandalism. So, there's all these different things, but value comes from education.

There's all of these different components, and I think it's what you're saying. If we have limited resources, we might be forced to look at it differently. Instead of just throwing money at installing a certain type of technology, what do we have to do to build it up in a way that it is actually sustainable by the people who need it?

Peter Hayward: Yeah. By the people. For the people,

Samista Jugwanth: Yes.

Peter Hayward: Rather than a benevolent, autocratic approach of where someone who knows better comes in and gives you their solution to your problem.

Samista Jugwanth: Exactly.

Peter Hayward: Without really any consideration for how when they have left the community makes it their solution.

Samista Jugwanth: Exactly. There was one story she told me that was funny and scary at the same time. She spoke about this. So fundamentally in some of these areas, people don't understand why they have to pay for services because they've always gotten water from the river, and that's a free resource. That's something that's their birth right.

Water now is polluted. There are factories upstream. There are other towns and cities upstream, so that's no longer the case, but it's something you can't see. So, it's very difficult to understand that - like naturally understand that.

You then have a situation where people put in water systems by putting these shallow boreholes, and they put in sanitation systems by putting drop toilets, so like septic tanks. Once again, very shallow.

They made the mistake with the engineering part of it where it wasn't designed properly. And so the infiltration from the septic tank was being picked up by the boreholes and people got sick.

And so you had a community which wasn't quite accepting of this in the first place, now getting sick by the infrastructure you've put in. It set them back way more and people hearing that story, it also, it, it didn't do anyone favours.

And so I think it does lead to this idea that when we do these sort of projects, you need tools like human centred design methods - you need tools like systems thinking or strategic foresight to help create a solution that incorporates the people that you are working with and for into that system.

Peter Hayward: I think the empower, I think the empowerment of the communities such that they can solve their own problem with their own approach. And that, of course is the opposite of so much of the international aid was being done from a kind of western science engineering perspective that they knew the best way to solve sanitation, water, whatever else.

Samista Jugwanth: Yeah.

Peter Hayward: Yeah.

Samista Jugwanth: So the signals that are in my head are not the most I would say are not the most sexy sort of ones, no. But I do think this sort of basic challenges that we have - they definitely do deserve a space in our strategic foresight sort of community. To solve basic challenges.

Peter Hayward: I think you're also touching, you're also touching on another thing, which is the de colonialization of futures. That to, once again, as I say, the past to hell has paved with good intentions. Yes. So much of futures comes out of a Western European – again - engineering science background.

That's where, that's where our theories came from. That's where our texts came from. But we are seeing (really it's only early days) but we are seeing a conscious attempt to decolonize to make futures more accessible to people within their own cultures, their own language, and their own frameworks.

Samista Jugwanth: And there's amazing things coming out. One of the other things I got into during COVID was the concept of placemaking. There are so many, there's so many good ideas coming out from the South American countries about placemaking and creating community and urban environments.

Earlier you and I had a very long conversation about that, and that there is so incredibly important. And those ideas can actually be applied across the world. It's not a developing country requirement. But it's definitely coming from a place of need, and the value can be translated into other communities as well.

Peter Hayward: I think we're also seeing in continents like Africa and South America that there is a certain - while they have tremendous disadvantage - they also don't have invested sunk investment in systems that don't work, so they can almost jump or hurdle. They don't have to work their way through failed infrastructure.

Samista Jugwanth: They're a lot more agile.

Peter Hayward: More or less, they can actually go to solutions. We've seen that with mobile phones and now mobile phones have yes, been taken up in, in communities and have spun off financing, education, empowerment, credible women, and again, so again, this. This idea that technology and really foresight is a technology, but rather than going, saying, and we know the way that you should use the technology, it's now here are these technologies, what, which ways do you want to use them?

Samista Jugwanth: Yes. Actually that, that, that could be one of the, my most favourite things about strategic foresight. They are are tools in order to facilitate the knowledge. That are in people's heads. So, it's not, a lot of the time, it's not us coming with the answers. It's about us facilitating the answers.

And so, you take into consideration the solutions that come from the communities that you're working with. I think that's one of the best things. It's an example with the bank. We didn't tell them what they wanted. We asked them what was important to them, and then when we came in with the engineering behind it, it was effective because we were giving them exactly what they wanted - what they needed. It is actually a very colonial way of thinking that we know best. Our textbooks say, this is what you need, so this is what you need.

Peter Hayward: But again, I think you've already touched on that. You can go into any community irrespective of their culture and their background and their education, but if you ask them what they want in the future, they can be very concrete about what they believe a better future for themselves, their families, and their communities will look like. In other words, they don't need to be an expert foresight person to go in and simply say to a person, what would a good future look like in 10 years’ time? What would a failed future look like in five years’ time?

And people can articulate that without having been to university or having studied futures and foresight.

Samista Jugwanth: It is a very human thing, right? To have hopes and dreams and fears - that there is something very instinctive. And in that there's a wealth of knowledge.

Peter Hayward: There is I think we've already covered it, but I might just get you to run through, you've talked a lot about how you've been able to communicate the value of futures and foresight.

The fourth question I ask the guest is, how do you explain what you do when people don't understand what it is you do?

Samista Jugwanth: I use a futures cone. I explain the reasoning behind the futures cone. And I think it's something that most people can understand that as time goes, the number of decisions and possibilities increase.

And because of that, we can't really predict a future. And I think given the sort of the environment we're in now, that's so volatile and unpredictable, I think that's easy for everyone to accept. I. But then I still follow it with the idea that if we can look at these possibilities, we can extract the risks and the opportunities.

And we can mitigate against the risks, and we can anticipate the opportunities so that we can grow. During COVID, there were some businesses that did exceptionally well because they anticipated opportunities and they moved towards that. And I think that there is something that's very, once again instinctive people do get behind that concept very easily.

I tend not to use a lot of buzzwords, so I tend to always explain what we're trying to get out of it. The thing is that if you come a lot with charts and terminology, you can lose people. So most of the time what I try and do is explain what are the outputs from this exercise. This is what we're going to try and get because it's going to be used for this.

And once people have that, they really buy into the system of what we're doing. In the way that I facilitate. I also tend to mix it up. Being someone who has a very soft voice myself, I do appreciate, you have people who are much easier to speak in public and those who are quieter with their thoughts and they need to have time to think about it.

So I tend to actually split up facilitation. I don't like having these very long drawn-out workshops because I feel people get exhausted and you also tend to get the same people talking. I break it up so beforehand I might have a Microsoft Form survey that I email out to people - that sort of more thinking questions where they can be at their laptop at night.

And they can think about it, and they can be as crazy as they want because, it's not them saying these things, it's just brainstorming. And then when we get into sort of more facilitated workshops, I like making sure that it's as diverse as possible in times of age, race, where their what sort of functionality they have.

In the last one I had the municipality workers, but from the different spaces: planning, design, operations, we had academics, we had consultants. In one of them, I think the water demand, we had some people who were there to look at it from the perspective of a user and. I try and mix it up in terms of individual group activities, stuff they can do at home.

And then also I do make sure that there are a mix of - a lot of the time in the sort of circles that I'm working in, a lot of the senior officials are older, but because they also have a sense of responsibility and everything they say has weight, it's very difficult to get them to let go a little, and think wide.

And so I generally try and seed the tables with younger engineers, so like engineers who just graduated because they're excited to ask the questions. They're excited to say why are you doing that? Or, what happens if we did this? Or it might be a stupid question, but could we do this here? And that sort of, that, that youthfulness and that inquisitiveness, I think, often allows people who are very structured because of their position to open up. So you also use people to get the most out of the groups.

Peter Hayward: So Samista you've, you obviously had a great time working with the APF Emerging Fellows and it clearly taught you a lot. It has given you a lot of ideas, but you talk about preferred futures. What does your preferred future look like over the next five to ten years?

Samista Jugwanth: That is a really good question, Peter. It's something that has been on my mind. My whole trip into strategic foresight has been almost serendipitous.

I found it by accident. I had COVID to percolate. I got the scholarship and then the emerging fellowship program. Believe it or not, I saw the advert for it the day it was going to close, so I wrote all the essays, I think within two hours just before the closing time cut off.

Things have fallen into place in a very, in a very odd way that just made sense when you look back at it in retrospect. The Emerging Fellowship program was just amazing in terms of giving me a voice in this community. Leaving it - it is actually - it was a question in my mind, what's next - because I don't want to stop. I enjoyed having those exercises of writing, of learning how to create thought leadership, but the question is, what is next?

And I decide to, I. To step back a little and think about what is it that I was trying to achieve? Because emerging fellowship taught me to - they challenged me to right about topics that were out of my area of interest because it was a learning opportunity.

I think I want to focus really into the intersection of infrastructure and strategic foresight, and I want to promote how people can use strategic foresight methods in a way to strengthen engineering planning methods. I just finished writing a book chapter for a book that's going to be published later in the year.

And the topic of my chapter was basically improving engineering planning methods using strategic foresight as additional methodologies. And I created a framework called the Prism Framework. So basically Planning Resilient and sustainable Infrastructure using Strategic foresight Methods.

In that framework, there are six steps that go from defining, listening, examining, exploring, evaluating, and testing. So how can we use strategic foresight methods in those stages of planning? And I think I want to work on developing that into a solid tool that I can share with others. In itself, it's not a tool, it's a collection of other people's thinkings and tools, but it's just putting it together in a way that. I can share how I've been applying all of these tools and the sort of information you can get and how that fits back into the engineering process.

So that's what I'm working on. I don't think it's going to be as simple as I would like it to be. Cecause I would like it to actually - I found a lot of value in running it in my projects and I really think that if that could be disseminated and, explored further and people build on it, that would be great.

So that's what I'm currently working on. I'm putting a lot of effort into it.

Peter Hayward: out. If anyone's listening to the podcast and they're also interested in what you are interested, is there any way that they could reach out and contact you and possibly, yeah, no,

Samista Jugwanth: I have quite an active LinkedIn profile, so if someone's also interested in the space, please feel free to, to connect with me on LinkedIn.

But also feel free to email me. My email address is samista.j@gmail.com.

Peter Hayward: We'll have that on your, we'll have that on your page along with your LinkedIn profile and your LinkedIn post about your project, so people will have that on the page.

Samista Jugwanth: I would love for people to reach out to me, Peter, because I feel like something like this would be, could add a lot of benefit in a very resource constrained world, and I think the only way can actually be made into something that is a solid idea is by having other people's perspectives added to it. So, I'm very open for people to collaborate with.

Peter Hayward: Yeah. And of course, I would argue that you've seen the value of community.

Samista Jugwanth: I have.

Peter Hayward: How people build community.

Samista Jugwanth: Yes.

Peter Hayward: To both help themselves but also help others.

Samista Jugwanth: Yes.

Peter Hayward: Look, it's been lovely to meet you. Taking some time out to have a chat and speak to the Future Pod community.

Samista Jugwanth: Yeah, no, thank you Peter. Even our conversation before we start recording, it was really lovely to talk to you. You have so of experience.

Peter Hayward: Thanks very much.

Peter Hayward: Thanks to Samista. I hope you enjoyed hearing about how Samista is bringing futures to infrastructure engineering and if you are interested in finding out more about what she does then she would love to hear from you. Her contact details are on her show page. FuturePod is a not-for-profit venture. We exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you would like to support the Pod then please check out the Patreon link on our website. I'm Peter Hayward thanks for joining me today. Till next time

EP 220: FuturePod - Foresightful Engineering - Samista Jugwanth

Bio

Links

Transcript