In this latest podcast Sohail Inayatullah and Robert Burke are in conversation discussing their 20 years of experience co-presenting Futures Thinking and Strategy development to senior executives
Guests: Sohail Inayatullah and Robert Burke
Host: Peter Hayward
Conversation Question
“How was the experience of working together for twenty years and trying to open up the heads and hearts of senior executives to futures thinking?“
Join in the Conversation - Ask a Question
Do you have a follow-up question you would like the guests to consider/respond to?
Send an email with your question to futurepod@protonmail.com.
Audio Transcript
Peter Hayward: Hello and welcome to Futurepod. I'm Peter Hayward. Future pod gathers voices from the international field of futures and foresight. Through a series of interviews, the founders of the field and the emerging leaders share their stories, tools, and experiences. Please visit Futurepod.org for further information about this podcast series.
Some of us in the community have the occasional opportunity to do Executive Education and get the change to influence and shape the thinking of senior decision-makers. But it is rare to have almost two decades of experience doing just that and so today I'm inviting two of our previous guests back to Futurepod to have a conversation about what they learned about themselves, their participants, and the idea of Executive Education itself.
Robert Burke, who we met in podcast 128, was the Program Director of the course in question from 2002 to it's pandemic last running in 2020. His collaborator in that program was Sohail Inayatullah who we last spoke to in podcast 124. I know both of them personally as both Master Practitioners and Educators and so I was not going to miss the opportunity for the chance to sit at their feet and learn from them once again. Welcome back to future pod, Robert and Sohail.
Sohail Inayatullah: Thanks Peter.
Peter Hayward: So can I start you off with this question? How was the experience of working together for 20 years and trying to open up the heads and the hearts of senior executives to futures thinking?
Robert Burke: Oh, for me, it was a wonderful opportunity primarily because of Sohail. I learned so much from Sohail and was able to pass it onto the people in the program, but it was very much an eye opener for me, as it was for the participants. It was really a unique opportunity to do something different in the business school environment. Up until then they wouldn't have thought of using futures thinking in their programs. Always stick to the tried and true various forms of leadership and strategic planning. So the futures work, we did really turn that on its head. And as I say, I was very grateful for the opportunity of working with Sohail, because I learned so much from that as well.
Sohail Inayatullah: This is the critical part here. So if we look at how Rob framed it. So many futures projects, here's how the world is changing. External world is changing, please act. And I think Rob's contribution is threefold. First, he said, well, before you act frame it as a learning journey. So it was a four day, five day program, but the first 90 minutes, almost two to three hours, Rob would go through the learning journey. What zero loop learning was where you don't learn single loop where you quickly act, but perhaps too soon. And what's this learning to learn and finally narrative or transformative learning?
So that set up the process. So during the four days, when they would go back to business as usual, they would go back to their traumas. They would go back to their importance as CEOs or CFOs. Rob, would step in, wait a second. We're not here to give you the future. We're here to transform your learning journey. I just remember one senior HR director and she was there and then after basically 30 minutes, she said, well, can we just cut to the chase? I would actually prefer to fly out this afternoon and that's spend four or five days with you folks. And then she went on to say why she needed the answer straight away. And I was flummoxed I said, what do I tell this person? I don't have the answer. And Rob, as the wise sage as he is steps in and says, I have the answer. And the director looks at everyone looks a little bit stops. Rob would tell us the answer and what is he going to say? And he says, the problem is you and the director just goes into panic.
She goes, what do you mean? He goes you want an answer where actually you've asked the wrong question. And so then he would take the learning journey as a step to leadership. So that was the second Rob's contribution to future studies. As the external world changes. First set up as a learning journey. Second it's about who you are and the who you are, your does here for a quick McDonald's meal. How is that going to help you shape your organization and yourself with so much ambiguity, uncertainty. And this organization is a global top 100 and had already failed going to market. They had so many failures, so this changed the entire conversation. She stayed the entire five days and then set up workshops throughout her organization.
So it was a major event where, you know, Rob's stature, as a CEO himself, could get traditional business leaders to take the future seriously. So that's kind of episode one. Episode two, if I can just continue a bit more, was there was another, I would say bolshevist, very irritable, for me, irritable person. Right? So it's a four or five day program and this guy is a total pain for me and he's a CFO and he keeps on questioning us, challenging our methods and goes on and on. And finally, on the third day, Rob just stops him and says, so what's your decision going to be mate? And the guy says, what do you mean? He said, what's your decision? He goes, what do you mean? He said, you're basically doing everything you can to be good as a CFO to do risk assessment. We've spent three days with you about how you can transform your organization. Become the CEO, become the Chair of the Board. To look at Emerging Issues Analysis, find opportunities to use scenarios to understand uncertainty, to go towards vision. Every step of the way when you've had a chance to become a leader you've balked and gone backwards. So finally, what's your decision? Do you just want to optimize yourself as a CFO or do you want to actually honor, the only real reason you came to this futures course to become a leadership with a new model of the future. And that look, I remember in his face.
So that's those two are, I mean, they're, they're pretty powerful memories in my mind. And of course the subtext was how joyful it was to work with Rob, because every step of the way I found myself learning new things, especially in these moments of confrontation. Because I'm a conflict avoider, and I think Rob to some extent is, but he would, at that moment ask the right question, challenge them to take the leadership jump.
Robert Burke: Well, thank you Sohail. Equally what has impressed with what Sohail did was he always remained calm. He never actually got anyone offside personally. If they'll ask a question he would honor it. Often he would go away and meditate. Think about it. The next day he would come up with this wonderful assessment of what had happened the day before, which was pretty, pretty unusual.
I think another thing that we tried to do was try to very much to get people to apply it to their current workplace. There's lots of case studies that were involved. We were also interested in methodology, but we're particularly interested in how they would take it back to their workplace. So when they introduced themselves, we didn't ask them to say what their expectations were because that's sort of saying, or you know what to expect and we'll go back into past. We ask them specifically what their intentions were, what were they here for? What do they want to do? How was it going to change? I think that was very powerful. For me Sohail is not only a wonderful academic, if you like a great scholar, but he was, he is a perfect communicator. He was able to bridge all the gaps between the differences and use a lot of coherence. So it was just a joy to work with him.
Sohail Inayatullah: This is the issue within if it's at the CEO level high level, in terms of, we wanted to make sure they had rigor and relevance. So I see now in 2022, everyone's doing foresight and futures. Some of it good and some of it actually quite junk. So we spend the first few days really focused on the rigor. Going with what's emerging issue analysis, what's scenarios, what's CLA but the real powerful part was at the end on day three he said, okay. Now we're finished. Spend the next day. Taking these core ideas apply them to your business. So these would be in the last 20 years, I would say almost every large business, a CEO or CFO, Head of Strategy has applied it, whether it's the energy field, in the insurance field and the road building field, they've gone back and said, okay, let's now apply to my own business. So we would set up this kind of a, safe space, where there was, okay I'm presenting to the board, you're all board members. Or we would say you're the CEO you're presenting to us as customers or as employees. The critical learning part is they would have to game a situation. And this became what we called our Monday morning question.
So we had Rigor, Relevance and the Monday Morning Question as they were presenting to all of us, not just what they learned, but how they intend to use this in their organization. Should the energy sector stay coal, fossil fuel based where everything they learned was a transition to renewable. How do I make the pitch to the CEO and the board that the transition to renewables is not something that the crazy futurist Rob said.
I remember in 2003, the first course Rob went on and on about sustainability, green business, climate change. And really the look on most people in the room was this person slightly looney. Because if you was single bottom line, we're here to make money. You're here to present risk, you're not presenting a risk. You're presenting something that none of us really buy. Cause we have hegemon in the energy area. It is not going to change. And of course by 2022 Australia has the highest uptake of solar energy per household in the world. So this was a transition. I remember Rob started talking about and the critical part is once some people present. Do this, you know, with citizens, but this was really the top of the top in this country being exposed to the emerging issues and the very much the leadership challenge. If this is the case, we're in a transition to renewables. What is it you as Head of Strategy, and I won't name the companies, but any Australian energy company they've all been through it. What have you, as Head of Strategy going to make the decision, what will you do? And they would then do a CLA. I remember one group, they kept on saying our current metaphors, is keep the lights on. And so Rob and I worked with them to say, okay, well, what's your new metaphor as the market is disrupted, as you get the new system? And they said, aha, we're the Connectors because the energy markets won't be able to sustain the transition from coal to renewables, they'll be actually erratic. So they have to connect the new integrated ecology system. So this became the critical part it was, Rob challenging about their leadership style, us giving them the emerging issues and three, them presenting them to us. So Rob my question to you is, when you first started doing this were you nervous they would think you are off the wall or, you seem to be confident? Here's how the world is changing.
Robert Burke: Yes. I was confident that we can make a difference. Basically from the work I did with you before I joined the business school. But also as a CEO when I was first introduced to the future thinking and I was able to apply it to my own organization and it made a huge difference. I think that what we were able to do with the cohorts we had, just to reiterate, was to get them to think that they're back in their organization and they're using these tools. So by getting them to use the tools in the program, we were hoping that would allow them to continue using when they got back to, their fantasy land or their work place.
I say fantasy land because strategy normally was done with visioning upfront. It was normally done with, or this is what we'd like to get financially, et cetera, et cetera. It didn't really challenge what was going on. So when we started to apply the six pillars of future thinking (Sohail's 6 pillars) the first four were the rigor and the last two were the relevance. So you can see that it was the thinking you needed to do before you actually did strategy. I think this made a difference for them. They actually had a structure that they could work through where in their head they thought futures might be complicated or difficult or airy fairy or whatever here. They had a structure that they could apply time after time after time. I think that was why we, you saw some of the organizations, who took it up seriously, make a huge difference. I remember when we had the CEO of Telecom Indonesia, come on the program. We're talking about the fifth largest company in the world, uh, and to see them start thinking about the future as a result of the tools was really a wonderful experience.
Sohail Inayatullah: The last part was the personal leadership journey. So remember one example you used to use in a hospital where the head of hospital, when you ask them, okay. Here's how the future is changing towards alternative health, complimentary health digital, but then you ask them, where are you in this journey? And I remember your story, which hit me quite profoundly was you would say, my mind is like a car. My personal metaphor, I'm in a car, and the tachometer is in the red , it's in the red. And so now that result is I'm going to have a bad health outcome. So it had them not just confront the role of the hospital in creating health futures, but in own his own personal journey. So I think this was always a very powerful, the last day of our course. We were taken through him, them through the inner CLA, the CLA of this self. Find out what's their metaphor and how do they transform? So I think many people saw that as the kind of the cherry on top of the cake. They got futures, they got strategy and they figured out their life story because ultimately I think Rob, you always argued organizations are just individuals. They're persons. That was the person in the organization that make the difference, not just the rules that they follow.
Robert Burke: Yes, that's right. The organization was an abstraction, so to speak. If you wanted to change your organization, you change the conversation. As Sohail was saying, we really wanted them to navigate the natural anxiety that would occur when you start to challenge yourself, challenge your ideas, challenge your whole past. Because we need to understand that a lot of these people are in the positions that they had, which took them their whole life to get there. So in order to get them to think differently or to change often challenge them, sometimes challenge them too much. But when we had the rigor part of the six pillars of future thinking, that was a way of navigating safely anxiety. So by the time they came to the relevant, they could really see, an opportunity to see if we can really make a difference t o apply it. Their challenge going back to the work place was whether they could convince people who hadn't been on the program to give it a go, how they could turn from being an Executive to a, if you like, a Learning Executive. How they could teach the people back at the workplace to keep this thing alive. And some did better than others of course, that became their role. And we did see people who would send people on the program from the same organization, time after time, which is always a wonderful thing to see.
Sohail Inayatullah: I remember this one group in 2008, they were in our course. And they were a large Health Insurance Company and their model in 2008 was insuring against illness. And then as we did the Emerging Issues, we moved to this four P model of Personalization, Prevention, Prediction, Participatory health. And we said, well, this could be the new model. So they change their framework from insuring against illness to creating the healthier you. So this was, it was in Rob your language, many CEO's come in, they're straddled by the past. So I think what I got from Rob's discussion, they would say they want a technical solution. And Rob would always push the technical solution, of course, will be easy because it fits into your current business model. But why are you spending four or five days with us? You can go to a normal strat planning course. You're here to learn about disruption and transformation. So Rob would push them to go for the technical solution to the adaptive solution. In this case, their adaptive solution was let's use the discoveries in genomics and personalization and their new metaphor became create the healthier you. And you can already feel the organization is. Now with the part we didn't know then, and this is the fun part of all futures, because we can see these insights solutions coming up, but we never know where it's going to lead. Now, of course, by 2022, not just did they create the healthier you they'd now had 12-14 years of health data. They could actually become a data mining company if they decided to. So this was the innovation, that adaption leads to more innovation. Where the technical solution makes you look good, if I understand correctly Rob, to the board and they pat you on the back, but nothing really changes.
These four or five days, it was so much fun working with Robert who is easy, gentle, but these were intense situations. I have to say I was always exhausted after them. Because there was so much, dealing with these people. Half of them were resistors. I'm trying to be nice, trying to make sure that the Melbourne Business School still wants to continue. This is not like , we're sitting there in a Noosa National Park, looking at trees and at the beach. This is confrontation, four or five days in a row. And I think the key points were always, do you want a technical solution that gets you a win tomorrow, or do you want adaptive solution where you change and your organization is best fit for the next 10, 20 years?
Robert Burke: Exactly. Mind you the business school itself, we had a challenge early on to get them to understand the value of future thinking. Academics are very difficult to change. They've spent their whole life being who they are. So once they are challenged they can be quite defensive. So we had to overcome those problems. Fortunately, we had a very good deputy Dean at the time, Dr. Karen Morley, who did see what we had to offer was something unique, something different, and helped champion us. So we did need our friends from internal as well as external to be able to get the program, the run in the first place. Once I got up and running and became contagious. Not only do people want future thinking for the program itself, but they wanted it in their leadership programs, they wanted it in their strategy programs. So I think if it did become a real thing.
Sohail Inayatullah: So Rob how many people do you think you presented to in the last 20 years? Not just in the course, but afterwards all your leadership futures.
Robert Burke: It's certainly added up Sohail., I reckon, or somewhere between 700, 1700 and 2000 senior executives over the last 20 years. You look at some of the futures work. We did a BHP, most of the energy companies with AXA overseas, CEDA, all the major leadership programs. It became part of it. I was quite stunned when I did the figures. You and I Sohail must've done almost 400
Peter Hayward: I'm wondering if there's something about having the two of you in the room and the personas that you represented or could have represented to the participants? And Rob, I'm going to say yes, he is both the credible CEO, the friendly, but also quite unforgiving present of this is the world you are in. I now I've been there. So, and Rob has said in his own podcast, that anxiety is part of the energy and fuel for change. And then there is, Sohail the integrated, the settled, the calm, the swans so to speak, and I'm wondering whether the two of you as a double act way kind of represented a kind of dilemma, but also the reality, both internal and external for the people in the room. And to some extent, a combination of you as synthesis of you was their future. If they were going to actually manage the process?
Sohail Inayatullah: No, I think you hit it. The metaphor would be with those one teacher. You can escape with both of us. There was no place to escape to they couldn't, if it was just me, they would have said, yeah, interesting futures consultant, professor type. He's never actually been a CEO and then with Rob, they would have come, well, he's great at this, but he's not, they would have found something, but with two of us there, they're kind of handcuffed to the emerging future. And either they join or, they're in trouble. So I think you really hit it. That, that dance worked, Rob.
Robert Burke: I think so, too Sohail. I also think that we were both very committed to future thinking. I mean, we believed deeply and we wanted to show that. So there's a great deal of trust between us because there was a difference in our approaches, I mean personal approaches, on our approach in a future thinking, we were able to cover pre futures if you like, and the post futures. And, I think together it really works on your own its difficult. I've done it on my own, but, to have someone particularly of, Sohail's reputation, Sohail's scholarship, in the area, the proof that he had given with his articles and books, et cetera, just made that much difference. And it worked. I mean, that was the main thing that we wanted to show them is if they could apply the rigor the relevance would fall out and it would work.
Sohail Inayatullah: I think with co-teaching, in reality 4-5 days in the beginning .And one of the deans said, look, this is good, but you'll get more people with four days. And we were like resistant, but that person was, was truthful. It was true. In a four day process, it can get tiring. So I have found, I could take off Saturday afternoon, you know, say Tuesday afternoon or not take off, but I don't, I didn't have to be mindful all the time someone asked something, I don't really understand. I could go walk around. You know, it was in Carlton or Mount Eliza, get some ice cream, see the ocean come back. Aha. Here's a response. So I think in terms of other people doing futures, team teaching with someone you trust who's similar theoretically, but it has a different life experience makes it far richer.
Robert Burke: I certainly agree with that. The most important aspects of what we tried to achieve though, was to get people to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. We were representing images of the future that were quite new to a lot of the people on the program. And then we asked them, well, if those images came true, what would you do? And this is where I found Sohail's integral scenario process where you integrated the disowned with the preferred was so powerful. And I think the participants did as well. They could see that they disowned something and it was relevant and that was real for them. But if they integrated that into their preferred and thought about, well, if this did happen, what am I going to do? To me that was a real eye opener for most of them, certainly was for me.
We started with the program, but the program actually evolved and evolved in little ways, but made big differences. So by the time 2020 occurred, there was a difference than when it was in 2002 and 2003. They were sort of differences that were built over time, partly from feedback from our participant and partly from our contribution of what we wanted to see happen. It was fun days as well. It wasn't as though we were going to work. I felt elated when I was on the program. You certainly were anxious, but you knew that you were there for a reason and you knew that you could make a difference and you knew that it's the people who responded are going to get a lot out of it.
Sohail Inayatullah: And certainly Peter or your Sarkar game which you invented was featured every year in the program. You used to share it with us and then we started to do it. And the amount of insights that would come afterwards, they would reflect. Why did you act that way in terms of the transition from here's, how the world was changing to here's, who I can be in that future and what parts of my current organization do I have to change? I still remember one of them, everyone else was fighting, right. There were, the warriors were attacking the capitalist, and she was a worker and she just found a couch laid down and got out her sparkling mineral water and drank it. And then everyone afterwards said, what did you just do? Why'd you do that? She goes, well, I don't have to be part of your game. Yeah. And so this was her kind of not just passive resistance she was saying here's another way to do this. And that became quite a highlight. Why did she do that? How come she didn't pick up the gun or try to buy someone off or work? She just said, no, I'm going to lay down and have my sparkling water and reflect on the world I want. So those little instances came from the game.
Robert Burke: Sohail mentioned just a little while ago, we went from five days to four days because marketing suggested that and it worked. But the reason for that is that the participants on the program were increasingly senior executives, really senior executives CEOs CFO CIOs, et cetera. So time was precious for them. It was really gratifying to see that people of that caliber were prepared to make some changes themselves. So they came on the program usually very positively. But that was the reason we reduced it from five days to four days, just because of more and more senior executives wanted to come on the programs but they were time-poor.
Sohail Inayatullah: For someone who's just starting out in futures, foresight. The tension is always, how far do you go? So I remember Rob saying and many of the participants saying we came for futures thinking, we came for future studies. That's what excited us. Novel thinking, outliers, but funding comes from strategy development. The course is called future thinking and strategy development. So strategy development was what they, as the board, would give the CEO of money for that. The HR director would have a strategy of money for that. So it's almost like, how do we integrate the two? We want to be forward yet we understand that today's world strategy is the ticket. So this for the younger person starting out, it's really doing both in a way that brings in people, but you stay in your authenticity and say, no, here's where we need to go.
Robert Burke: Exactly
Peter Hayward: My question is there are not enough Sohail's to go around the world and there are certainly not enough Rob's to go around either. Around in the world. I don't want to look for a recipe, but if you were to distill this down, if others get an opportunity to deliver significant change and framework processes and transformation processes for senior decision makers. What are the jewels that have to be present, you think based on your 20 years of experience?
Sohail Inayatullah: One there's a process issue. So before they start, they should do a CLA of the self or anything that gets them towards "what's my metaphor in terms of doing futures?" Is it a journey to the lighthouse or is it they're lost in a desert and have to find the oasis is whatever there is.
First start with the story, find the story that's going to work for them. So that's the thing that's outside the recipe. Do the inner work first. Here's who I am in a teaching learning futures journey is that becomes critical because whatever else happens, that person stays in their story and it's authentic. So it doesn't matter what the audience says. Because that's who you are. In terms of the technique, clearly what we're seeing here, if you can team teach it, fantastic. Make sure you have enough theory, rigor, but make sure it's relevant too to where they are. Make sure as well that it's fun. So we have the CLA game, the Sarkar game, Polak game, all the things actually, Peter you've invented two of them.
So we make sure it's fun. And then the thing that's really, whatever you do, it has to be action learning. So the Monday morning question is met, head front. It can't be something you talk about on day four, or if you're doing a one day at 4:00 PM. No it's upfront. We understand you need to make this real Monday. Let's start doing that now. So you're actually practicing this. And Rob would always say, as you think about the Monday morning question, anxiety will emerge. So this is the mindful part. I will feel anxious because I'm afraid it won't work Monday. I feel anxious. The board will throw me out. And you address that straight up, learn the tools and methods, figure out your inner story so when you present, whatever it is, you're okay with it.
Robert Burke: I think there's also the question of memory, at the business school, when the pandemic hit just about every program in executive education was canceled. And as a result of that, a lot of people were no longer working for the school , as a full-time employee or as a contractor or whatever. So a lot of memory was lost. I know at the school now there's probably only one person who remembers the program that Sohail and I ran and, she's very good, but she's not really on the high echelon. The rest I think of basically disappeared as a result of the pandemic. So one thing that I think we probably lacked in some way was to enhance that memory for periods like a pandemic. Perhaps there was something we could have done internally. I could have improved that situation. Having said that though the school was always very supportive. I became the first futurist in residence if you like at the school. And we were asked to give speeches and parts of other programs.
And I think if you lose a lot of champions, you lose a lot of memory. You somehow got to think about, well, how can we kickstart that again, but not at the beginning more or less at the end. I think your question about involving other people early on in the process is a really good one, Peter. And perhaps we could have been better at that. In defense of what we did, we weren't against it, or you certainly, you certainly tried it. Anyone on the leadership programs, we did the same sort of programs so people could see what we were doing. So I highly encourage you to stick around, but also getting them to want to stick around because often they're challenged their way of thinking to their way of teaching. So we had it both ways. I had to convince the school that there might've been other ways of learning. And we had to convince the participant that there might be other ways of doing strategy.
Sohail Inayatullah: I think that's a fair assessment. Our weakness was me and you aren't institution builders. So if we had a third person who actually held the space of futures courses, but I think we were, we wanted our freedom. We wanted to fly in, fly out. We wanted to have a great time. We weren't, the type was spend six months filling out forms to make sure the course continues. That's right. But I think that's a fair assessment. That would be our weakness and other people would want to make sure they're not concerned about the content or quality or who shows up as long as something called the course or the program continues, but that was never us. But I think that that's a fair thing. If we had that, let's, let's see how it works out. It's. Let's see if they understood here was the impact. And if they don't it's okay. Because all the people who graduated, I still get emails. They still want to keep on doing futures. Exactly.
Robert Burke: Exactly. I think the people who did it are sold on it. We did keep the school involved. I'm really saying that it takes effort to want to change. And business schools, I think have to put extra effort in if they want to be relevant for the future. They have to change as well. And I think we played a major role in getting our business school to change. There are still some people that probably were still too anxious to really look at it in a deep way. But again, that's me over- thinking. I was surprised how the pandemic could make such a difference.
Sohail Inayatullah: This is the meta question for the nature of universities. They have hegemony over knowledge so they think the world changes, they're still wondering, Hey, what just happened? And I think this is systemic throughout the world is moving towards, "I can learn anywhere from anyone, any time, any place", this kind of major break we've had.
Robert Burke: And of course, Peter, you have experienced similar things at Swinburne?.
Peter Hayward: We personify change and transformation and the notion that you can institutionalize transformation.
Sohail Inayatullah: Yeah. That's exactly.
Peter Hayward: Uncertainty is just that it's almost an oxymoron. However, the data says you kept this course going for 20 years in any institution, let alone a university institution. You personally taught the best part of three to 400 people, but also spun off to the best of estimation, 2000 senior decision-makers. And I'll point out to, for me, one of the things you did that was brilliant was you put individual transformation at the core of organizational transformation and that was on the front foot. And people came there wanting to be transformed, but using almost the organization as a kind of reason for them to get into the room and justify what they were doing. And so, yeah, I think the knock on effect of what you guys achieved for 20 years will, will play out well. Well, well beyond, uh, the effect of just one job in one person. Yeah. Fantastic.
Robert Burke: That's great. I mean, one of the big differences we did ours was about learning from the future, as well as the past, that's a traditional teaching methods is obviously learning from the past. So there was that big difference there.
Sohail Inayatullah: And then going back, would you said Peter, what's the recipe? What I have found any time I have not spent time, you know, say I only have a day or even two hours. I still make sure the first few slides are always about the Learning Journey. So then at the end of the hour or the day, they can't say you didn't tell me the answer as a, wait a second. We were very clear in the beginning. This is your learning journey, learning to learn. This is about you confronting what you don't know, which unwilling to talk about. And so once it's framed that way, the traditional critique of forecasting or foresight drops away because now we're co-designing, as Rob said, it can't be here's my expectation. No, we're creating a safe space for creation. You're co-creating. If that's the goal, then every workshop, speech, et cetera, project starts with this is a learning journey. Who are we in this learning journey towards a new future learning from our desired future.
Robert Burke: Yes. I guess overall, future thinking is now well recognized and well used throughout the world. And I like to think we played a little part in that. It is also about organizations themselves wanting to survive. It was a survival thing as well. And that we were trying to convince organizations that part of their survival trick was the concept of creative destruction.. What do I need to blow up in order to invent the new? Of course, that was pretty anxiety provoking for a lot of people. How could they destroy what they've got? So it's something different, something more powerful emerges. I think we're able to differentiate that. Maintaining the rage the way it was was important, but for senior leaders, et cetera, it was less important than trying to find out to do it better. How to take these trends and differences and at least prototype them to see if they can have a better organization in the end, or capable of navigating change, but also creating that change. Being the provocateur or being a change agent. So we wanted them to think that, and for big powerful companies that was difficult for them, but those that picked it up, ran with it, which was always good to see. Electric cars is one of the very interesting ones. When we say that how the automotive industry has changed quite completely.
Sohail Inayatullah: I was just doing a project with Mitsubishi motors, Rob and I was telling them about what things you were doing 20 years ago. The entire conversation with the executives was about innovation, electric cars, driverless cars, green cities, sustainability is that we need to be more like Gretta and Elon. And I said, yeah, that's, that's the stuff Rob broke when he was a CEO car companies was talking about 20 years ago. And then of course the discussions were all about optimizing fuel mileage. And of course now over twenties it's really shifted. So that's the fun part of doing this over time. You can see the future start to emerge. Then our role is always okay, well let's now create the next horizon.
Peter Hayward: Yes. Last long enough to be able to use the past in the future.
Sohail Inayatullah: Okay, brilliant.
Peter Hayward: I behalf of the community, thank you both for your 20 years of work and, uh, yeah. So thank you very much for spending some time. Thanks,
Sohail Inayatullah: Rob Peter. This was lots of fun. Appreciate it. Thanks Rob.
Robert Burke: Cheers.
Peter Hayward: This has been another production from Futurepod. Futurepod is a not-for-profit venture. We exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you would like to support Futurepod, go to the Patreon link on our website. Thank you for listening. Remember to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. This has been Peter Hayward saying goodbye for now.