James H. Lee is an award-winning investment strategist with over 30 years of experience. He is also the founder of StratFI, a boutique advisory firm that focuses on “What happens next?”
In his new book, Foresight Investing: A Complete Guide to Finding Your Next Great Trade, Jim finds opportunities in the emerging technologies of tomorrow, including the internet of things (IoT), augmented reality, cryptocurrencies, automation, artificial intelligence, longevity science, and new sources of energy
Jim has been quoted by The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, The News Journal, Financial Planning, and Technical.ly. His articles have been printed by the AARP, Investopedia, the Journal of Futures Studies, Technological Forecasting & Social Change, and The Futurist.
Interviewed by: Peter Hayward
Website: StratFI
LinkedIn - James H. Lee
Twitter: @jhlinde
Most Recent Book
Foresight Investing: A Complete Guide to Finding Your Next Great Trade
Podcast References
University of Houston - Master of Science in Foresight Program
Strauss & Howe, The Fourth Turning
Richard Yonck, The Heart of the Machine
Phil Tetlock, Superforecasting
Nassim Nicholas Taleb, The Incerto
Cathy Wood, Ark Invest
Reinhart & Rogoff, This Time is Different
AUDIO TRANSCRIPT
Peter Hayward
Hello, and welcome to Futurepod I'm Peter Hayward. Futurepod gathers voices from the International field of futures and foresight. Through a series of interviews, the founders of the field and the emerging leaders share their stories, tools and experiences. Please visit Futurepod.org for further information about this podcast series. Today, our guest is Jim Lee. Jim is a financial advisor with over 30 years experience. He's also the founder of StratFI, which is a boutique investment advisory firm that focuses on "what happens next". Jim holds a BA in economics from the College of William and Mary and an MS in studies of the future from the University of Houston Clear Lake. He is a member of our Association of Professional Futurists, and has just published Foresight Investing, which explains the investment opportunities in the Internet of Things, augmented reality, cryptocurrencies, longevity science, and new sources of energy. Welcome to Futurepod. Jim
Jim Lee
Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Peter Hayward
So Jim, question one for our guest is to tell it is to tell their story. So what is the Jim Lee story? How did you become a member of the futures and foresight community?
Jim Lee
Yeah, well, if you look at my background, my father was a career physicist with DuPont. And he invented all sorts of things from barcode scanners, digital x rays, to optical switches. So he had a physics background. My mother, meanwhile, her family spent 100 years with Chase Manhattan Bank, she has more of a finance background, and you put the two together. And you know, I'm kind of like the Frankenstein of finance. This means I'm running experiments in the my basement hoping not to blow anything up. And we always talked science and money. My niche is really as what I would refer to as a "financial futurist". I'm trying to figure out what happens next,
Peter Hayward
As a master's student, and you would obviously talk this through with Peter, the future, of course, is unknowable. So there is both this is this paradox that we want to know what the future is going to be as big as we can cash in on it. But then if we believe the future is open and open to our influence, then we cannot know what is going to happen.
Jim Lee
Yeah, I think it's somewhere in between. It is. It's it's not completely unknowable. But it is also not completely fixed, either. And that's what makes it so tricky, particularly when you apply it to the investment world where the rules keep changing from one year to the next. It makes it interesting for me, because it's even less predictable than a lot of the trends that I write about my book.
Peter Hayward
Well, I suppose the rules are always there to be, to some extent circumvented by the next clever person, aren't they?
Jim Lee
Yeah, in what I do is I look for rhythms and patterns and cycles, because if you understand the rhythms of things, sometimes you have an idea of what happens next.
Peter Hayward
So given your background, i mean science and money, I can see that but that doesn't lead naturally to studying futures at Houston Clear Lake?
Jim Lee
Yeah. So we had a brief conversation before the show, Peter, and we both found out we have very, very similar backgrounds, undergraduate degrees in economics, followed by graduate work and in futures. And I was working for a family office for the DuPont family. And was probably around 30 years of age, it was time to, you know, take the next step in my ongoing education. And I went to reunion - a class reunion for William and Mary and I ran into a colleague of ours, Christian Cruz. We were standing for a group photo class of 1991. And I asked Christian, what do you do? He said, I'm a futurist. I thought, How cool is that? I want to do that, you know, I could be a futurist or I could get an MBA. There was no competition whatsoever.
Peter Hayward
Right? Yeah, Christian was pretty cool.
Jim Lee
Still is.
Peter Hayward
So then what, you know you're working in an office, but you then decide to go and study future did that seem natural?
Jim Lee
Well. It's about it's about finding the big opportunities in looking over the next 10 or 20 years and seeing what transformative technologies or social movements are on the rise. If I look back at some of my more successful speculations, at the time that I made the investment, it was in ideas that seemed a little crazy at the time. And I was a little edgy. You know, example of that when I was looking at investing in Canadian marijuana companies like back in 2015-2016, because they weren't even trading in the U.S., you know, there's a way of accessing that in the U.S. market, you know, going into cryptocurrency not too much after that... that's still a largely unregulated industry. And from what I can see is the views better from the edge, you're more likely to have exceptional gains, and also exceptional risk, to be honest. If you get into things before they appear perfectly reasonable.
Peter Hayward
You just used the word that is dear to my heart. And it's one that I don't think we use a lot in our community conversation. And this is notion of speculation as a futures strategy. Can you talk about what speculation is for you and how we use speculation?
Jim Lee
Sure, so for me, it's a matter of looking forward to see what the mega trends are, what the big opportunities are, and to see how those trends intersect with each other. And to see what the implications of those trends are. So it's very much a forward-looking approach, knowing of course, that the crystal ball is going to be a little foggy at times. It's still a worthwhile pursuit.
Peter Hayward
And for me, it's looking forward but also being prepared to take a position rather than just continue to look because, to me, continuing to look is not speculation, as I understand it, speculation is the point where you actually put your skin in the game.
Jim Lee
You do, and I've always felt that being an investment manager keeps me honest, as a futurist, because there's a way to keep score. And there's a great temptation when you work in foresight to come up with four scenarios, in which one of them is right, and then you say "Hey, I got it!" when you're perfectly hedged from the beginning, OK? And that's, that's kind of cheating. You know, if you're in the forecasting business, you sort of have to say this is where I think things are going.
Peter Hayward
Philip Tetlock, actually, who's a researcher of people who look at political process prognostications, and he's the person who penned the phrase super forecasters but one of the attributes of super forecasters is actually keeping score, actually putting your putting your prognostications out to the public or a select group of people to actually hold yourself to account.
Jim Lee
That's correct. And he's responsible for, I believe, the Good Judgment Project, guess which is located out of the University of Pennsylvania. And what I've found is that a lot of futurists tend to be Jack-of-all-trades, they're able to carry multiple perspectives. They tend to be very fluid. And that's the conclusion that Philip Tetlock reaches as well. Are they more of a fox than a porcupine if they don't do any one thing super-well, but they're pretty quick on their feet. Yeah.
Peter Hayward
And also prepared to change their mind, which, of course, is the essence of... because you're going to be made an ass, aren't you, with the future. It is going to do something to you that you didn't expect...
Jim Lee
Well, I tell people that there are a few occupational hazards of being a futurist... and that is that any statement made about the future will in hindsight, may appear to be obvious. May appear to be wrong. Or worse yet, may appear to be obviously wrong. Okay. So if you look at my book that I wrote in 2011, right after the financial crisis, it looks pretty obvious. So I think that's about as much as I could hope for.
Peter Hayward
Yeah, I used to always say that at Swinburne, we didn't teach a Masters of Strategic Hindsight, because most people had pretty good hindsight.
Jim Lee
Yeah, you don't pay extra for that.
Peter Hayward
I asked you this question before and I'm going to ask you now, is it I mean, are futurists naturally good financial investors.
Jim Lee
Yeah... so the way that I look at this is that if you want to be in the right place, at the right time, it's helpful to show up a little bit early. OK? And futurists are the first to know about a lot of things and that's one of the reasons why I like hanging around with the APF crowd is I get all of these interesting oddball scanning hits that I just have never heard of before. And they're just a fun group of people. The problem is, is if you show up too early, and you're the first one at the party, and there's no one to talk to, that's no fun either. The risks of being a futurist is you can be five or 10 years ahead of time. And if you're an investor, that's not going to help your portfolio, you know, you kind of need to show up at the right time. And you need to be sure that the trends and the investments that you want to make are moving in the right direction, or at least have potential to move in the right direction, in the fairly near future.
Peter Hayward
Because Nicholas Taleb has a term that he uses when he in his books with Black Swan and Anti-Fragile... his notion of taking the long bet, the notion of being prepared to hold a position for a period of time, almost waiting for the leveraged opportunity to emerge now that takes courage, and also, you know, being being actually prepared to be wrong for long periods of time, as opposed to a lot of what is financially... people say in finance is take your losses and end and get out of positions that aren't working. Where do you stand on that dichotomy?
Jim Lee
Yeah, so in my book, on Foresight Investing, I take a look at two different approaches. One is trading, and the other is investing, okay? And trading is about looking at long term trends, but also keeping in mind what's working now. And you're looking at a much shorter holding period, and much smaller tolerance for losses. And with investing, you're going to be taking a longer view. And you're going to be holding a stock for a little bit longer and willing to tolerate a down quarter or two or maybe even a down year. So when you invest, you need to have an understanding of your timeframe and your risk tolerance.
Peter Hayward
I'll go to the second question, because I think we've kind of edging up to it. I ask the guest to talk and explain to the listeners, and yeah, most of the listeners on Futurepod are what you would probably call futures literate, I might well if I could be actively practicing futurist they could be proto-, but -coming futurist, or just people who are interested in the idea about the future. And I asked each of the guests to talk and explain the use of a particular framework or approach or philosophy that is central to how they do their work. So what do you want to talk about and explain to people about how you approach take your stance about the future?
Jim Lee
So if you look at the different types of futures that we study in the field, okay, you have possible futures, which are things that could happen, you have preferred futures, which are the things that you want to happen. And then you have probable futures, which are the things that you think are going to happen. OK? My work in investments, I'm generally going to be looking at probable futures, while hedging on some of those possible futures, some of those wild cards. But generally speaking, I'm going to be interested in where things are going. And the tools that I use for that.. One is trends. The second is cycles. OK. So trends tend to be a little bit more of a straight line projection, straight line for forecast. It's where we think things are going. You don't fight the trend, OK. And the trend is your friend until it ends or it ends, okay? It is until it isn't. And cycles tell you when trends bend, and when they end. So if you combine trends and cycles, you almost have this yin and yang type of thing, where you have cycles within trends that are within larger cycles. And that's the way that it should be. So I use both of those.
Peter Hayward
So for you what is called the counter trend is basically the action of the cycle kicking in whichever cycle it is that as the cycle is turning, the counter trend starts to get stronger, the dominant trend starts to get weaker and possibly even flips.
Jim Lee
Yeah, and you can bet on counter-trends. I mean, for every trend, there is a counter-trend, and it might not necessarily be as strong but it's tradable.
Peter Hayward
In terms of, again, I'm going to bring you back to our professional colleagues. Do you think that this notion of the trend and the cycle and the counter-trend and the turnings Do you think those are well understood and well practiced by our colleagues?
Jim Lee
I think that there's a lot of opportunity there for additional research, you use the term "turnings", which is used more specifically referred to in the book, the Fourth Turning by Howe and Strauss. Which is, I would say, the most popular or the most recognized long term social cycle right now. In the futures business, I have a take on that, called the values and expression cycle, which is a 40 year cycle versus an 80 year cycle, which for me has been a very useful forecasting framework, which tells me how one decade will be different from the next. I used that as the framework for my last book, and it's been spot on, it's been great.
Peter Hayward
It's interesting when theories like Fourth Turning and so forth, because of course, they are heuristics, we use them and we look through them, we see the evidence that supports them. But that, of course, is the narrative fallacy of the way our brains operate.
Jim Lee
Yes, you're looking for excuses for something to work.
Peter Hayward
Because there is a risk in that, that you suddenly believe the heuristic rather than understand you're looking through a heuristic? To understand how do you avoid that?
Jim Lee
One of the risks of that methodology, the Fourth Turning methodology is they talk about the Fourth Turning like this big, you know, change... that will be just utterly earth- shattering. But they never tell you exactly when that's going to happen. They give you kind of like a 20 year timeframe, which a lot of careers don't last 20 years. And you need to be a little bit more specific, in order to be useful... in order to take a position. And that's what I do by looking at some of the shorter term cycles too.
Peter Hayward
I'm going to suggest that within our discipline, particularly people who look at a world that's possibly behaving in a way that doesn't look like it's paying attention to our long term future, that one of the fundamental notions in finance and economics is this notion of discounting the future in the sense that as we value cash flows, or we or we put values on things, we tend to put less of value on things that are further and further into the future. Yes, almost as if finance and economics by its nature discounts the future or prefers present over future. And if it's a choice between what makes sense now versus what makes sense, then we're better off sticking with the now... do you actually accept that?
Jim Lee
So this gets really interesting, Peter, because in finance, we use something called the discount rate, which tells you the extent that you are willing to wait for a future outcome. Okay, so a low discount rate enables future revenues, future opportunities to have much more value, and gives you much more patience than a high discount rate, which says, "We need our money now." And what happens with higher inflation, you have potentially higher interest rates, leading to higher discount rates, which is why we had such a big sell-off in the tech stocks between February and April of this year with a lot of the tech darlings off 30 to 40%. Because people were changing their patience for the future.
Peter Hayward
What happens if we take that concept of the discount rate, but we move it out of the quite confined facts of finance, and we move it into more the kind of social/political space and I'm thinking something like valuing action on climate. I'm in a country where I've got a current government that basically says, "We make money out of selling coal, why why would we stop selling coal?" And of course, many people arguing "What the hell are you doing?" They just see what's coming. They just see what this is contributing to. And I say the same thing. Of course, you certainly had the same thing in America when Trump was there versus, you know, Biden coming in and trying to pivot to the different energy stocks, but the notion of applying a discount rate, can you bring that finance concept over and possibly apply it in a kind of circumstance, like, for example, you know, coal, or energy or climate change policy and that kind of thing.
Jim Lee
So the discount rate is a very quantitative factor that you can use in modeling, as you know, but it also equates to another term, which I think translates better in a political sense. And that is confidence. And that if you have confidence, you will have a greater aptitude for patience, and a greater interest in some of these longer term projects such as climate, you know, remediation, or converting to more sustainable technologies... relative to someone who's not confident... relative to someone who's feeling insecure.
Peter Hayward
With their job and that kind of thing.
Jim Lee
Correct.
Peter Hayward
So for example, a person who's losing their job is applying a high discount, right?
Jim Lee
Correct.
Peter Hayward
Because they're saying, Now I know if you close the industry, I lose my house, I lose my livelihood through someone else's is applying a much lower discount, right? Because they actually see that either they can adjust to it that they haven't got any pressing needs in the short term.
Jim Lee
Spoken like a true economist. Yes, absolutely.
Peter Hayward
I want to go to the third question now... I'm going to ask Jim Lee to put down Jim Lee founder of StratFI, and I want to talk to Jim Lee human being on planet Earth, about the futures that are emerging around you that you're paying attention to that you're sensitive... to the futures that get your attention and get you thinking, you know, what are they? You know, what are the things that both excite and possibly even trouble you or give you concern?
Jim Lee
Yeah. So, when I look at the mega trends of the next decade or so, we're looking at aging demographics, and potentially anti-aging therapies coming on the horizon, we're looking at tiny tech, which is looking at both bioscience and smart materials. Looking at digitization, which has been a trend for a while, we're looking at automation, which is AI, and also robotics... and urbanization, which is one that while I was writing my book, I thought was just a slam dunk, you know, we've been urbanizing, for 12,000 years, then COVID hits, and people are fleeing the cities. And I'm kind of wondering, do I have to rewrite this whole chapter or not? So, you know, that's going to happen, too. So with regards to the urbanization, I kind of wonder how quickly we will recover emotionally and socially, from the lockdown enough will be more distanced in our relationships, in our work relationships, or not, or if cities will be able to bring people back with a degree of confidence. So I wonder about that.
Peter Hayward
With that list of things you mentioned. And certainly I'm going to suggest in America, you've got some quite fundamental social equity issues in terms of people's ability to access or a whole range of services like health, education, that kind of thing. Do you see that, while those things are going to emerge? And you know, and we are going to see, you know, life extension, and, and, you know, super technology, that the access to that is likely to be very, very unequal according to where people are in terms of their ability to, to basically exit and get the benefit? And could we be actually further stratifying and further creating gaps in social equity.
Jim Lee
That seems to be the case, having lived in the country and having lived in the city, there appears to be more opportunities for work and for education and for opportunities in urban environments, versus the rural environments. And I think that tilts things back in the favor of the cities going forward. But we will find out, I think, the biggest defining characteristics of cities that were greatly handicapped by COVID, versus the ones that are thriving... are whether or not they had subway systems or not, whether they had centralized transportation, that packed people in railcars underground in close quarters, there was definitely a push back on that. And that's why you saw one of the reasons why you would see, you know, people moving out of Chicago or New York or Los Angeles, because there was just a lack of comfort for a while.
Peter Hayward
Yeah, before COVID, there was a tremendous push to get people out of cars, onto public transport systems because of the energy traffic implications, pollution implications. And I would imagine there's been a strong pivot back to people seeking private travel arrangements and withdrawing from public transport systems,
Jim Lee
And with with autonomous cars, and the ability to access transportation on demand. I think a lot of these urban transportation systems that have been built over the last 100 years are going to come under a lot of pressure. I think people are going to choose not to use those.
Peter Hayward
The big one, of course, that happened here, and I'm sure it happened in the states that when people stop traveling to work, and when people and when kids stopped going to school because they started to do home education, or a lot of the forecasts for travel needs, road infrastructure, public transport infrastructure, for that matter, started to look pretty silly.
Jim Lee
And the question is... is education next, with people learning remote on their own schedule for a fraction of what it costs for a four year university? I mean, they've kind of dodged the bullet so far. Yeah. But between distance learning and shrinking demographics, now that the millennials have kind of grown up, and you have a much smaller generation behind them, you know, the children of the Gen Xers... I think you're going to have a lot of financial pressure coming to play for larger universities.
Peter Hayward
Yeah, one we don't know at this stage it is still a sleeper trend is... the mental health issues of lock downs particularly on the younger people, particularly in the education school years, is very, very early signs that the lockdowns had seemed to have a more dramatic health effect mental health effect on younger people than it did actually on older people.
Jim Lee
Yeah, so I don't know if you know, Richard Yonke or not, who wrote a book called The Heart of the Machine, which looks at AI and chatbots. And the conversations that you can have with your Amazon Alexa, or your Google Home, as a way of making mental health available to the masses cheaply to the masses. And when Apple was looking at people's responses to their verbal inquiries, a lot of them were asking questions like, "How do I feel better? I'm depressed, what do I do?" And there's a huge need to extend that and put people in a better place.
Peter Hayward
Interesting. Push onto fourth question... communication question I get, I get the sneaking suspicion that you're pretty good at this one. As you explain what you do to people who don't necessarily understand what you do.
Jim Lee
Well, I have a niche. For me, I tell people that I run a boutique investment advisory firm focused on what happens next. And that covers the bases. When I started, Peter, I would tell people that I'm a futurist. I thought that would be the conversation opener, you know, I just thought that would be just fascinating. And people usually looked a little perplexed when I told them that. So I needed to tell them a little bit more about how I apply it.
Peter Hayward
And?
Jim Lee
And I applied to the investment process, you know, try to figure out where things are going so that I can position my clients to benefit from those trends.
Peter Hayward
It seems to me interesting that people who are initially perplexed by the notion of being a person who thinks about the future or thinks about what's coming, yeah, certainly I've encountered that, that people look at you as if, you know, "Why do you do that?" And then when you put it within the explanation of finance, people sort of it suddenly makes sense, is actually finance one of those natural places for people to actually embrace foresight in everyday life.
Jim Lee
Oh, I believe that it is. And in fact, one of the fastest-growing investment firms run by one by Cathy Woods is her name runs a group called ArkInvest, which builds thematic/ trend-based funds that people can invest in. And she has been crushing it for the last few years. For me investments are a way of showing that there's value, in foresight, in quantifying it in real terms for everyone. So yeah, I think it's a natural fit.
Peter Hayward
Let's talk about the book, foresight investing, just published. Yeah. What do you want to tell the listeners about the book, why they might be interested in having a look at it?
Jim Lee
Yeah, well, well, this was my COVID project. I think there are gonna be a lot of books coming out over the next few months. You know, write the book or go to work, you know one, one or the other. And this is the investment book that I always wanted for... for myself, because it really ties it all together. If you look at my background, and my journey, I started out writing software for stock analysis back when I was a teenager, something called technical analysis, which would follow the price action of of stocks, look at the charts, look at trends, see what's trending, what's not trending, and that's kind of where I started with all of this. Then I became something called the CFA, which is a Chartered Financial Analyst, which is all about looking at the numbers and figuring out profitability, different types of ratios, looking at valuation, which we talked about a little bit earlier today. And then after that I went to get my degree as a futurist. And what I found out is that different strategies work for different timeframes. And being a futurist gives you the long term perspective, being a market technician and looking at the day to day price action helps you fine tune when you get in and when you get out. It's very complimentary, very interdisciplinary.
Peter Hayward
I mean, finance is a weird animal in the sense that what it attracts, it attracts. I mean, genuine, good thinkers. You get the quants who do the modeling, you get the charters to believe that everything can be fitted to a graph line, you get the trainspotters, trend watchers, and then you get that bizarre behavior about GameStop. Yeah, which is more about take on the big elephant and take them down.
Jim Lee
Yeah, you know, I'm not quite sure whether the game GameStop and Robin Hood phenomenon is good from the perspective of.. does it build trust in the markets? I would say not. What it does do more than anything else is prove that markets can be manipulated. This time... not only by institutions and hedge funds but by hordes of small investors as well. And I'm just seeing some mistakes made that are very superficial, that have significant consequences. So for example, people have wanted to buy the cryptocurrency, Ethereum, the ticker symbol on that, so to speak, is ETH, but when you buy ETH in your brokerage account, you buy shares of a furniture maker called Ethan Allen, they've done really well because people were buying ETH. And it's almost easy to overthink this sometimes. I mean, depending upon what the Elon Musk might write about, you know, Bitcoin or Dogecoin can have very significant impacts within seconds. And people learn obviously thinking for the long term. And what makes investing interesting is you're always going to disagree with someone, for every buyer, there's a seller, and people also have different timeframes to some people are expecting to hold things for seconds, other people are expecting to hold it for years. And this all clashes in the markets.
Peter Hayward
It does my head in when I see zero interest rates, being you know, sitting around the world and and governments pumping money as fast as they can. And I have people telling me about modern monetary theory in the world is different this time. And I've heard that so many times that you know, the world is different this time until it's proven that it's not.
Jim Lee
Oh, there was a great book on that call This Time is Different. Have you read It?
Peter Hayward
Yeah, I have. I'm not convinced that is different.
Jim Lee
Well, they weren't convinced either. You see, that's it's been a great book, yes, 0% interest rates, who knew this would be a thing. What I'm looking at right now, which I find fascinating is this whole decentralized finance phenomenon. And what happens when people no longer use fiat currencies, meaning the currencies issued by their governments in choose to offer currencies that didn't exist 10 years ago? And will those decentralized currencies be embraced? Or will they be rejected? And there's no fixed answer to that yet every country is taking a different approach. I know in the US, we've been very slow to regulate it. And I think it was El Salvador, they decided to make it a national currency or at least something that people were required to accept Bitcoin. Japan, it's legal, I think, Turkey, it's illegal. China's shutting down Bitcoin miners. There's no consistent response to this, from what I can see.
Peter Hayward
I wonder if, again, for people whose interest is not finance per se, but the people whose businesses to actually think about disruption, whether finance is an area that moves quickest moves earliest and possibly foreshadows bigger issues down the pipe?
Jim Lee
Yeah, I would be inclined to agree with that statement. Because it's easier to make a trade and to change your perspective fairly rapidly. There's there's a framework known as paste layer thinking that says that different things move at different rates, okay. And I think this one came out by trying to remember Stuart Brand of the Long Now Foundation and he basically says, fashion moves, you know, sort of on a weekly almost a monthly basis. Commerce moves within one to three years, then it's infrastructure governance and then culture and then nature. And, in finance It moves in nanoseconds at times.
Peter Hayward
it certainly does mean flash trading and the handing over financial transactions to computer servers.
Jim Lee
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it does. And there's there's a lot of that, although that's completely automated and it's displaced a lot of financial analysts, because finance has gone quant. Over the last 20 years. It's a different game, like...
Peter Hayward
Like basketball.
Jim Lee
Yeah. Or baseball.
Peter Hayward
I've thoroughly enjoyed our chat. It's been good to talk futures and talk economics and talk finance. I don't get to do it often. So thank you for that opportunity. On behalf of the Futurepod community, thanks for taking some time out. have a chat and good luck with the book.
Jim Lee
Of course, thank you.
Peter Hayward
This has been another production from Futurepod Futurepod is a not for profit venture. We exist through the generosity of our supporters. If you would like to support Futurepod, go to the Patreon link on our website. Thank you for listening. Remember to follow us on Instagram and Facebook. This is Peter Hayward saying goodbye for now.