The FuturePod team get together to look back on the first 100 conversations, look forward to where FuturePod might be going, and farewell one of our founding members.
Interviewed by: Peter Hayward, Meredith (Mendy) Urie, Rebecca (Bec) Mijat, Amanda Reeves, Reanna Browne
New audio sting: Listen to the full audio of our new intro song, taken from the song Wings of Air Force by Serge Quadrado, from his album titled Future.
__________________________________________________________________________________
Transcript
Peter Hayward
Hello, and welcome to FuturePod. I'm Peter Hayward.
Mendy Urie
I'm Mendy Urie.
Amanda Reeves
I'm Amanda Reeves.
Rebecca Mijat
I'm Rebecca Mijat.
Reanna Browne
I'm Reanna Browne.
Mendy Urie
FuturePod gathers voices from the International field of futures and foresight.
Reanna Browne
Through a series of interviews, the founders of the field and emerging leaders share their stories, tools and experiences.
Peter Hayward
Please visit Futurepod.org for further information about this podcast series.
Mendy Urie
Today, the FuturePod team comes together to celebrate our 100th episode.
Reanna Browne
Join us as we look back on the first 100 conversations, look forward to where FuturePod might be going and farewell one of our founding members.
Mendy Urie
So fantastic to hear Reanna and Amanda, and your voices on this podcast. I wonder if you would like to introduce yourselves to the FuturePod community.
Reanna Brown
Thanks, Mendy. So I'm Reanna. I'm based here in Melbourne. I've been a member of the foresight community for the past six or so years, I have a background in strategic workforce planning, organisational design and development and HR, which are now combined with strategic foresight. It's an interesting combination of skills and education, but it's also perhaps by purpose or design. So foresight and org design and development, I think, work together really well to tie threads between that foresight insight action gap, I knew we needed to unlearn the way that we were thinking about the future of my previous role. So we're perpetually stuck in that tyranny of the urgent but then I kind of got into foresight and saw gaps where we weren't closing that gap between the fourth futures inquiry and then what does this mean for me come Monday. So these kind of ideas of unlearning and relearning the future foresight inside action, or the I like to call it the the 'so what' 'now what' 'then what' has really informed my practice today, at the moment, I run my own consultancy, work futures, which is focused on helping organisations navigate the futures of work, but also critically, I think, helping individual workers navigate the futures of work. And that's a conversation that I don't think we have much when we're talking about the future of work, we spend more time I think, intoxicated by the technologies that will define the future of work than we do the actual experience of the workers inhabiting those futures. So I'm really interested in how we can unfreeze conversations around the futures of work and workers and look beyond those grand narratives, but also how we can help organizations and individuals design transitions between now and then. But of course, I do much more than that. I do other collaborations around speculative futures and futures education and literacy as well as other general foresight and strategy development processes.
Amanda Reeves
So I'm Amanda Reeves, I had the good fortune to be in the last class run at Swinburne masters of strategic foresight, and I got to see the best of some of our facilitators who say, they left the final act on the floor. Futures and foresight for me has been such an amazing experience of understanding what facilitated practice can be, and what that can look like and how insightful and skillful facilitation can really help different possibilities emerge from very stuck situations. So my background is largely based in healthcare. I've worked in all different aspects of healthcare and community health in writing policy in State Government, as well as working as an improvement lead and eventually a change coach in hospitals. I found that was that's been this really beautiful tool for helping us talk about where it is that we're going and what we might find when we get there in a way that often is missed when we're doing change.
Mendy Urie
Yes, lovely, really lovely. I want to say how excited I am to hear you both too. So, to have you, you both as well, I often feel old, I have to say, you know, I'm in the last chapter of my employment and to hear the next generation of smart young people coming through who've really got your careers in front of you to experiment and see where future thinking can actually take us, gives me a lot of hope to hear you both. So thank you. Thank you for joining FuturePod. It's awesome that you're interested in carrying on this really important thing that's been started.
Amanda Reeves
Thanks, Mendy. That's very kind. And it's really a pleasure to be joining the team. I feel like we are ships passing in the night at this point, I've taken a great a lot of pleasure in the work that you've contributed to FuturePod Mendy. But I understand that there's a new change on the horizon for you.
Mendy Urie
Yes, indeed, yes, to have been part of FuturePod, since its inception with Peter and Rebecca has been a real privilege in seeing something grow from zilch to something that's become quite precious. I don't have the sense that it's a huge thing, but it's a very valuable theme. I think with continuing the space that's being created to hear experienced voices, but also new voices being contributed to this space. And I'm particularly interested in the voices that can point us to what we need to do on the ground in real life, how it can help us in our day to day work lives. And I guess I'm moving on the current job I have, I found myself back in local government, after a bit of a break, being led by what I feel the future is wanting of me, and wanting to understand where my skills can be most beneficial. For me, that is in a very practical way back in the community where I sort of started from really, and local government is a great opportunity to at least try to apply a lot of the things that I've learned through futures studies, I finished the Masters of Strategic Foresight in 2015. And, you know, every day I'm grateful for that perspective, I suppose, even though I'm often frustrated with how it can be directly applied, I'm sure it's there influencing me along the way. I'm actually the Mayor of East Gippsland at the moment.
Reanna Browne
Mendy, when you were speaking then I was really thinking through what does it mean to lead in these messy and kind of transitional times? And how has foresight and your learning in that space been? Has it been helpful, a helpful kind of starting point through these transitions?
Mendy Urie
It is challenging and exciting, and lots of opportunities to facilitate and lead in a way which, you know, I hope makes a very, at least a very small difference in the end.
Peter Hayward
I'm going to jump in there and just add something a bit that Mendy's community for the international visitors, they may remember at the at the start of 2020, we had terrible bushfires in Australia. Actually, Mendy's area was one of the most affected areas. So one of the reasons I think she put her hand up to go back into a leadership role was what had actually happened to her local community.
Mendy Urie
Indeed, and that's the bushfires. I've actually done a term stint in local government before and Peter asked me what was different and I said, well, the world has actually changed in the last 10 to 12 years, you know, it feels a lot more complex, there are a lot of things changing, collapsing, bringing opportunities for growth, as well. And for new innovation, trying decarbonise the economy, but it often, you know, it often comes back to simply relationships. And I also said this to Peter that some days, I feel like in the midst of all the chaos that appears to be around sometimes my number one KPI (key performance indicator) is to try and just have an open heart with all the community is going through. Sometimes I think that's the best way to respond or the number one way to respond.
Amanda Reeves
So Bec, you've been on this journey from the beginning. Tell us a bit about the story so far. Where have our guests come from, and who's been part of the conversation?
Rebecca Mijat
So who we invited in at the very start of this experiment were people who we were physically close to. We started recording the podcast in a studio in Carlton, Melbourne Australia. So to kick off the series we began with some of the founding foresight and futures. We reached out to those who were physically and logistically workable for us, within Victoria who to get into the studio, and who made sense for them to take part. We were lucky enough to get a couple of people who were passing through Melbourne as well, Richard Slaughter, and Richard Hames were within that first batch. We had 12 interviews in our first batch. And then over time, we started to think about how we could get more of an international bent into the series too. I think our very first international guest was Jay Gary from the United States. That's when we tested out the online recording methods, and think about the different ways we could maximize the amount of guests we could we could record on FuturePod. From that time, we did a mix of in person, and digitally online recordings. Then the Covid-19 pandemic hit. That really switched us to connecting with people online digitally, even if they were physically close. We really strengthened the tools, and the quality of the audio working through how to get the highest quality audio we could out of the recording studio. From a people perspective, we started off brainstorming people that were interested in the futures and foresight field, people that were interesting for us as individuals some of the founding members, or really strong contributors to the field of futures. And from there it's been one of those things that we've never ever had an empty list of people to reach out to. As we've had more and more conversations, more and more interview suggestions have come up, including from the people who we've interviewed, which has been a lovely evolution or lovely organisc way of finding new guests. One of the key things when we first started as well, and Peter was strong on this, was making sure as as people get older, that we capture the wisdom of those who have maybe not be practicing as much anymore, making sure that we we get some insights recorded from them. So yeah, there's a bit of a mix of wanting to make sure that we're recapturing the long, steady members who are part of whether it's the Association of Professional Futurists, the APF, or other contributors from an academic or a professional basis. And that's really broadened out over time. I think with the welcoming of new team members (Reanna and Amanda) to the FuturePod team, I think naturally that will just expand the types of people that we bring into interview as well. We all have a common thread in terms of being strongly interested in futures and foresight, and we've all gone through academic education in that space. But we all also have specific subject matter expertise and specific professional skill sets that we bring and therefore different networks, different interest points as well. So I think as Reanna and Amanda start to interview more and more people, they'll be able to tap some interesting people on the shoulder and contribute that the podcast, which will be different from just Mendy, Peter and myself.
Mendy Urie
So Amanda, I'm really intrigued to hear, who do you think FuturePod needs to hear from next?
Amanda Reeves
Thanks, Mendy. As mentioned, the first 100 episodes have included discussions with many of the founders of the field. The pool of potential guests we can draw from has deepened as we shift from in the studio to remote recording. We will continue to talk with well known names in the future space, and provide a platform for emerging practitioners and voices have been historically excluded or underrepresented in this space. The founders and well known practitioners in the field have been mostly white, mostly men, and mostly born into colonial cultures. There are many practitioners doing interesting work whose identities and perspective sit beyond this mould. And we'd like to speak with more of them, women and non-binary folk, people of color, indigenous or First Nations peoples. Ultimately, we're excited to talk with more guests who are taking foresight in interesting directions and expanding our understanding of what foresight is and can be. Whether this be through creative expression, colliding foresight practice with other disciplines to create mutant practices, or friends of the field to bring new insights that shape our understanding of our own practice. Speaking of collisions, as we pass 100 episodes, I'm keen to find ways for new insights to emerge from the intersections of these conversations. I'm experimenting with Roam Research to see if network knowledge can create new pathways of discovery between our FuturePod episodes, to provide a new way for our listeners to follow their own direction of 'maximal interestingness'.
Peter Hayward
Reanna, what do you think we shouldn't change, in Futurepod? What do you believe has to be continued?
Reanna Browne
For me, I kind of go back to this sense that some of the most powerful work we can do right now is to constantly create the conditions for things to emerge. So for me, it's having this strong intention in the first place of why we want to bring people together or purposeful kind of relationality. But for me, it's the intention of Futurepod, about constantly creating the conditions for conversations and dialogue, and thereafter insights start to emerge. It's nothing specific, it continues as an intention, as an idea. So we are curating the spaces. I think in the last 12 months, my own professional practice, I've really shifted away from needing to know the what or the how, or, or the content and more about, well, how can I simply create the conditions for things to emerge, and I really see Futurepod as an excellent space for doing just that. So I'm sure there's capacity to make structural changes, but holding space for these very conversations is is part of its benefit and power.
Mendy Urie
Reanna, is what you're pointing to, an answer to another question...how is it that so many of the Futurepod conversations are so surprising? They end up in a different place than I anticipated. I think that's part of creating the space for something new to emerge. So is that the sort of quality you're looking to continue?
Reanna Browne
I think so. And it's also this, there's a real subtly in blow by blow kind of communication, where someone's really just waiting to impose their own position versus a genuine dialogue. When you are there, and you're sitting and you're deeply listening. And there's kind of an exchange and it's additive, you know, you're adding on to what the other person is throwing out there. So for me, it's that the power that comes from a genuine dialogue when you're adding on to the thread from the other participant and how that gets you two points that neither of you would have got to in the end. I think that sense of what does it mean to think 'with' and 'through' and 'besides', rather than to think 'on', that's a really powerful and enriching way to set up these types of conversations as a dialogue, not as a communication.
I have a question. I'm really interested in what threads retrospectively have emerged? So we have the conversations, but what is it that's been a really interesting thread that has emerged in retrospect.
Peter Hayward
I don't think there's an overarching golden thread across the conversations, I am picking up generational threads. I am very much aware that for a lot of the people that we'd regard as the people who've done the early work and founders in the field, for many of them, while there's a satisfaction in what they've done, there's also a deep sadness. There's also a kind of sense of opportunity missed. And then of course, when you speak to people who are early in the journey, there is both an optimism that real change is possible. And as one of the older generation, it's good to hear as Mendy said, but it also, it's almost like when it has been a struggle for some of us, it's almost been a person hasn't actually bumped into the struggles...and do you want to mention that to people? Or do you just want to say, well done, don't worry about it, just get on with it, you might not have the same problem.
Reanna Browne
Yeah, what is it that you've noticed...I'm just speaking off the cuff here, but you mentioned in terms of the threads, the sense of missed opportunity? What is the flip of that?
Peter Hayward
I mean, there's a sense...and this is not universal, of course, but it's been said by some of our guests that really foresight has failed, for so many things that we have been talking about now for over 50 years, as issues that were emerging, even earlier, going back to, you know, limits to growth, there is a sense to which a lot of people doing a lot of work with a lot of passionate enthusiasm, but in terms of actually influencing decision makers, some would say, we failed as a field. But I don't take that it hasn't been worthwhile because at the same time, like all experiences, if for example my generation haven't been as successful as they could have been, the next generations can learn from that.
Reanna Browne
I think that's part of what I feel is really exciting about what's emerging in this space is it's shifting away from this sense of how do we influence current decision makers to a space of genuine creation and enactment. And I think that's the fusion of creative practice, as well as foresight, and what happens when creative, artistic practice meets foresight. And that work is shifting to kind of, you know, rather than challenging the current paradigm, it's building alternative futures in the present. And I just find this emergence of foresight practice in that intersection of creative practices, so exciting, and perhaps a helpful iteration, based on the times that we now are currently in.
Mendy Urie
I think that's really beautiful, and perhaps one of the things that's become apparent to me through listening to some of the dialogues and also putting this into practice is, not so much a reliance on the techniques of futures, but of actually paying attention to those creative spaces and how they can be built and nurtured and appreciated as the places where we will understand more and learn more and perhaps even receive some sort of an indication of direction to go in, in the future. I think that's really exciting.
Peter Hayward
I agree completely, that the reaching out to other creative and imaginative techniques, whether it's formative dance, art, neuro psychology, those things just enhance what is still a substantial field in its own right, and we are adding more to it. I think one of the threads I would say across the fields is, we say this is a 'meta disciplinary' 'meta paradigmatic' field, all the interviews show how meta it can be. When you hear someone do that, the answer is, well, why didn't I think of that? It's almost like a sense that I didn't know that was possible. But so many of the people we speak to just simply take it that bit further than we imagined you could take it. I think it's truly inspirational.
Amanda Reeves
So Mendy, you were one of the people that helped plant the initial seed for FuturePod. Looking back at 100 episodes, how do you think it's grown?
Mendy Urie
Well, physically for a start. And, you know, initially, I don't think we had a really strong idea of what this thing would be, or, you know, even particularly what its purpose was. But hopefully, we were responding to something that was a bit a bit exciting, and, indeed, interesting that we were able to say yes to, and just starting so small, we could only interview people in Melbourne, because we were relying on the recording studio in Calton to do it. It was only subsequent to that, Peter and Bec were very good at the technology and very good at teaching, so we got better at that. And it's grown from there, and to a global conversation. So much more inclusive, much broader. And that's been fascinating, I think, to include, you know, right across the world to compare people's stories and how futures and fourside is being applied in so many different, different situations. So it's been phenomenal growth.
Amanda Reeves
So Peter, how's the conversation changed? What's delighted you?
Peter Hayward
What's delighted me, Amanda is we are now starting to get messages from people saying, I listened to a FuturePod conversation, I heard about futures and foresight, and I'm now studying it or I'm now practicing it or I'm now learning it. So that to me is just amazing. That's part of what Mendy and Rebecca and I wanted to do was we wanted to create something that actually inspired people to actually join us. I get really, really excited when I hear that people like Wendy Shultz and other educators are actually using FuturePod interviews to teach people how to do this, using the interviews and the conversations with the practitioners and asking students to use it as a resource for study purposes. And as Mendy said, we really hadn't thought of things we did, but to me the Coronavirus series that we did when very early in the Coronavirus, we had futurists talking about what they thought was going on what they thought it meant, what was possible. And I mean, I don't know how significant that was, but it was at a time when people had no information. There was something happening, and it just seemed to make perfect sense that we would start putting podcasts out there about this thing that was happening and what it might mean for us. I was particulary proud and particularly happy with the generosity of people who were just jumping in there. I mean the process was only months old, and people were jumping in there with opinions and trying to put ideas out there, which, I thought was fantastic.
Mendy Urie
Peter can I also ask you another question...and that is that when we first begin, one of the important elements was that you and we wanted to honor those people who had built this field. I wonder to what extent you feel FuturePod has been able to do that?
Peter Hayward
I mean, in terms of what I was hoping for Mendy was to give people a chance to, in their own words explain their own story and their own approach...I think we've done it with obviously all the interviews and people like, you know, Jim Dator and others. I am particularly proud of the memorial lecture that we did for Wendell Bell. I actually think that was finding people who worked with the person, if we missed the opportunity to speak to the person while they're on the planet, then I'm particularly delighted by the fact that we actually found a way to speak... and with the cooperation of other guests, we hope to continue that as well and expand that out into other people that we want to remember. And not just remember, but also let them inspire the next generation.
Amanda Reeves
Bec, I'm interested to know how FuturePod might evolve, will we stick to the same format? Or will we experiment with other types of delivery?
Rebecca Mijat
This definitely has been something that we as a team have thought about over time. And it's interesting, it's naturally evolved since we first started. So of course, we started with our what we call the standard interview, where we would have one on one conversations with founders in the field or emerging leaders get to know them as an individual, how they've entered the field, the tools, methods they use and something of interest that they're working on at the moment or something of interest that's in their world at the moment. But you would have seen through our introduction of the COVID-19 series, and also our FuturePod Conversations, we have already started to think about how we can create different types of conversations and have different topics of expertise or different topics for people to speak to and draw out their expertise and thinking. So it's definitely something that I think, with Amanda and Reanna joining we'll bring some different thinking into the mix of how we actually get more voices in different types of conversations. I know as a team, we've talked about maybe having a bit of a live audience at one point in time. And as a wider group, we're all very keen to make sure that we bring in the voices that are less heard, but of course, are equally as important as well. So rather than focus on people who are often out in more of the public space, trying to get some of the experience and wider variety of people in the mix as well.
Mendy Urie
Can you please outline for us the role that technology has played in seeing FuturePod develop over the last 100 interviews?
Rebecca Mijat
It's definitely played a strong role. So as I mentioned in the previous question, we started out in a recording studio in Carlton, in Melbourne, Australia. And at that point in time, we had to learn new technology to learn how to record and edit podcasts...so that was a bit of a learning curve, I think for for all of us in the in the founding team. From there, we set up the website and we've really seen that be a great resource over time. So it's not just the hosting of the the actual podcast audio files, but really FuturePod.org is a whole lot of information, additional resources for people to go in and find and dig deeper and get lost in finding about new information. We've received quite a bit of feedback from people finding that as a useful add on to the actual podcast series itself. We started in terms of releasing the the podcast, we used, of course, social media, so our Instagram and Facebook accounts, and also LinkedIn. In our Instagram account have about 1000 members at the minute, Facebook's been good in that we've been able to or people who are listeners have been sharing our podcast to their family and friends or other other community groups that are on Facebook as well. LinkedIn has been a nice opportunity for us to showcase and get visibility within the professional sphere. So I know even just through my own personal network, whenever I post something there's always someone who comes up to me at work and mentioned that they've listened to a podcast or that they find it interesting in terms of what is strategic foresight what is futures thinking. So it just helps start conversations in that in that sphere as well. And I think through LinkedIn we have been able to attract people who again may not have actually heard of futures and foresight but are interested in stepping forward to learn more about it, and find the podcast itself and the website itself is a great resource. It is a bit of an introduction for them to learn what it is because it can be quite an interesting concept to try and describe to people...so hearing it from different individuals, different voices, different locations, is a great way to be able to learn about the field learn about the types of work that people are doing within the field. What else comes to mind from a technology sense are all the different tools that we use to bring the podcast to life so whether it's the audio streaming audio capture that we're using now to record people in different locations and minimize the amount of voice disruption and stabilise the voices so that it's a good experience for listeners, through to the editing software, through to the the tools we use to create and publish the social media posts. So there's so many different logins that that we use different online tools that we use to actually create the podcast so it is absolutely critical to the creation and also the evolution as we think about the the other types of conversations or more conversations or experiments we can do in the future, technology is of course going to be critical in that.
Peter Hayward
Rebecca we've also made one last notice of all technological change after 100 episodes and that's changing our theme music.
Rebecca Mijat
Yeah, absolutely. I think time for a change, time for a refresh on on that front. It's interesting I think probably yourself Mendy and I, we're completely used to it now but I feel in terms of it's a nice symbolic change as we bring in new team members as well have a bit of a think about the starting lyric fit with our brand, fit with our new flavor that we are bringing in some new voices into the mix as well. If anyone's interested in listening to the full version of the the audio song we'll add it into the end of this podcast series. Take a listen to it in full.
Amanda Reeves
This has been another production from FuturePod
Reanna Browne
FuturePod is a not for profit venture. We exist for the generosity of our supporters.
Rebecca Mijat
If you would like to support FuturePod visit the Patron link on our website.
Reanna Browne
Remember to follow us on Instagram and Facebook.
Amanda Reeves
This is Amanda Reeves saying goodbye for now.
Mendy Urie
This is Mendy Urie saying goodbye for now.
Reanna Browne
This is Reanna Browne saying goodbye for now.
Peter Hayward
This is Peter Hayward saying goodbye for now.
Rebecca Mijat
This is Rebecca Mijat saying goodbye for now.